Water pump failure after timing belt replacement?

[cf99]

I got 2 estimates for a timing belt replacement, one from a dealer, one from a private shop. ('01 V6)

They both mentioned that the waterpump can fail shortly after timing belt changes. They said it's not a sure thing but it's also not rare.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that, so I thought I'd ask here. Are the odds of the water pump failing after a timing belt job high enough that in your experience, you'd get the water pump replaced along with the timing belt job (it essentially only adds the cost of the waterpump plus a small bit of additional labor to the job)?

[Mister_Perkins]

Its always a good idea to change the water pump along with the timing belt. It does happen.. Your in there one time every 60,000 - 90,000 miles so you might as well do both to ensure it will last. You have to figure, your waterpump spins really fast to circulate the coolant. After so many revolutions, it wears out and starts to spin at an angle, causing friction on the outside of the pump. After a while of grinding against the pump housing, it catches and snaps your timing belt. Now you have to pay for a timing belt replacement twice in 60-90k instead of just the one interval. Its also a good idea to change out the other seals such as Cam seal, Crank seal, tensioner, and idler pulley at the time of the timing change.

So yes, your mechanic was speaking truthfully when saying that your water pump can fail at any time, because its true


As far as cost, the water pump should just be added to the Parts not so much the labor. It takes about 2 minutes to change it out.

[Mr.Nutcase]

Originally Posted by Mister_Perkins

Its always a good idea to change the water pump along with the timing belt. It does happen.. Your in there one time every 60,000 - 90,000 miles so you might as well do both to ensure it will last. You have to figure, your waterpump spins really fast to circulate the coolant. After so many revolutions, it wears out and starts to spin at an angle, causing friction on the outside of the pump. After a while of grinding against the pump housing, it catches and snaps your timing belt. Now you have to pay for a timing belt replacement twice in 60-90k instead of just the one interval. Its also a good idea to change out the other seals such as Cam seal, Crank seal, tensioner, and idler pulley at the time of the timing change.

So yes, your mechanic was speaking truthfully when saying that your water pump can fail at any time, because its true


As far as cost, the water pump should just be added to the Parts not so much the labor. It takes about 2 minutes to change it out.

Agree.............

[pmesfun]

Wait, don't you only have 20k miles?
I would take off the upper timing cover and check the condition of the belt, so you don't waste your money replacing a good belt.

[JohnGD]

For what you pay in labor cost not changing out the pump can be an expensive gamble after so many years.

Always do a "complete" timing belt job including at least the belts, water pump, and oil seals. You can add on other convenient items like a thermostat, radiator hoses, radiator cap, NGK Iridium-IX spark plugs, valve cover gasket set, etc.

The following is an old price list using info from rockauto.com. If you search "camry v6 timing belt kit" on eBay you'll also see an OEM kit (with mostly OEM parts that I know, not sure about Motorad thermostat and KP seals however) $264.18 kit with a thermostat/gasket and a hydraulic tensioner. A good deal.

Is the dealer estimate about $700-800 for the complete job including seals? (most likely not including the hydraulic tensioner however).

Ask what the independent shop uses for parts. Sometimes they use cheap stuff. I'd feel more confident with the eBay kit.



GATES TCK257 timing component kit $89.79 (incl two idler pulleys and
belt)
FEL-PRO TCS45890 crank seal $6.27
FEL-PRO TCS45889 cam seal set $8.55
GATES K060410 Alt/AC belt $13.09
GATES K040345 PS belt $8.61
AISIN Part #1610029085 water pump $61.79
Total ~$188 + shipping

If needed: FEL-PRO VS50471R valve cover set (with spark plug tube
seals) $30.79

Originally Posted by cf99

I got 2 estimates for a timing belt replacement, one from a dealer, one from a private shop. ('01 V6)

They both mentioned that the waterpump can fail shortly after timing belt changes. They said it's not a sure thing but it's also not rare.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that, so I thought I'd ask here. Are the odds of the water pump failing after a timing belt job high enough that in your experience, you'd get the water pump replaced along with the timing belt job (it essentially only adds the cost of the waterpump plus a small bit of additional labor to the job)?

[cf99]

Yes, I should have added that. The car only has 20k miles on it, and the (visual) condition of everything in the engine compartment (and the rest of the car for that matter) is about like a 1-2 year old car. Does that change anyone's answer?

[JohnGD]

Some parts like rubber do harden with age. Also, coolant and brake fluids should also be changed out every 2 years even if you park it.

So, I'd still do a complete timing job, including the pump and oil seals. Now if you can just make sure the tech actually changes the seals.

I wouldn't place complete trust in the dealer either. They make money by rushing and turning around jobs. Have you seen the Jiffy Lube video?

You Tube

You Tube

[JohnGD]

Why does the coolant reservoir look empty?

Edit: Ok, I checked your other thread. It's got coolant inside. Nice clean engine BTW.

I'd even flush out the PS fluid and use a synthetic blend Dexron III type ATF in there. But at least a Mercon-V like the Walmart SuperTech.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t19334.html

[71Corolla]

There is no way I would open up that engine unless it was leaking. Timing belts do not degrade with age in my experience, the materials are of a high grade.

Brake fluid for sure I would do.

[cf99]

Thanks for the links/video. Unbelievable re: JiffyLube.

The dealer estimate for timing belt, AC belt, PS belt, water pump, and coolant change was $730. Don't think that included any seals since the above was what I asked for a quote on. The import shop (with all OEM parts) was $610 for the same and that included a full coolant flush (non-chemical) and replace with a universal amber coolant like I asked about in another thread.
I'll add the upper radiator hose as well.
Just to replace the waterpump alone the dealer quote was $630! I guess that's an additional motivator to do the waterpump at the same time.

[pmesfun]

Originally Posted by cf99

Just to replace the waterpump alone the dealer quote was $630! I guess that's an additional motivator to do the waterpump at the same time.

I'm guessing you mean timing belt. I would look at local dealers website and see if they have any specials on timing belt replacement. One here had a tb replacement special for $300.
But again I don't think replacing the belt with only 20k miles is necessary.

[JohnGD]

Yes. If the pump is outside and easy to replace it's one thing. But if it's deep under the timing cover like that once you open it up just change it.

When the import shop says "OEM parts" do they actually order from Toyota? Some shops just throw around those words and mean whatever they get from the parts store.

Since dealers sell to local shops, if the import shop use "Toyota parts" and if their work receive good praises then that would be an option. The only thing I'm not sure about is the generic coolant. But that would be less of a problem on an all-aluminum engine like the 1MZ.

For example, Toyota still sells two coolants for a good reason - the Red (Long Life Coolant) and the Pink (Super Long Life Coolant). The Red is still used for bi-metal engines (alum heads/iron blocks and brass/copper rads/cores) because the Pink doesn't do a good job in those. But people used GM Dexcool with 2EHA plasticizer in these systems and swear it works great. So YMMV.

If the cooling system is drained I'd even add an OEM thermostat (with jiggle valve, never use aftermarket thermostats) and a new radiator cap (an aftermarket Stant with a spring loaded vacuum return valve is preferred, however. I'm not sure if Toyota switched over from cheap plastic valves). Basically change out all the parts in the eBay kit plus the upper rad hose. If you don't get the eBay kit you can minus the hydraulic tensioner, unless you know it's gone bad.

Do you see any signs of oil seepage at the valve cover gaskets?

Originally Posted by cf99

Thanks for the links/video. Unbelievable re: JiffyLube.

The dealer estimate for timing belt, AC belt, PS belt, water pump, and coolant change was $730. Don't think that included any seals since the above was what I asked for a quote on. The import shop (with all OEM parts) was $610 for the same and that included a full coolant flush (non-chemical) and replace with a universal amber coolant like I asked about in another thread.
I'll add the upper radiator hose as well.
Just to replace the waterpump alone the dealer quote was $630! I guess that's an additional motivator to do the waterpump at the same time.

[71Corolla]

I have rarely seen an independent shop use genuine Toyota parts, except when they can't get the parts from any other source. They make far more profit getting sub quality stuff and marking it up. I also don't like aftermarket rad hoses, they are usually thicker and the factory spring clamps don't fit on them properly (the hoses don't fit well half the time either), which is why you see the generic screw type clamps so often. The one Toyota dealer here even uses the screw clamps with factory hoses.

[cf99]

Very helpful comments, thanks!

On the PS fluid, it's been flushed and replaced with a synthetic. It was a tad dirty, visibly, when it was changed. I think the plastic reservoir has just discolored, so it looks "old" in the photo. Probably some age-related reaction of the plastic with the old fluid.

The brake fluid is crystal clear and I'm still on the original pads (6mm left on fronts, 8mm left on rears). I topped it for the first time, a couple days ago. I've always heard brake fluid was one of the few fluids where color was a good indicator of "goodness," but am always willing to get smarter. I think there are test strips for brake fluid, but you have to buy in fairly large quantity and they have a fairly short shelf life.

I'm not dead set on changing the timing belt. The thought hadn't even crossed my mind until I joined this forum and did some reading ;o). Two mechanics at the import shop made the same point that they just don't see timing belt failures just due to age (they said mileage and heat are the top 2, and age is a very distant 3rd).

On OEM parts at the import shop, they gave me a choice of a genuine toyota or MBL (I think those were the initials) on the timing belt. I priced it with the genuine toyota, which was about 10 bucks more. On the other belts, I picked bando which is listed as OEM and I think they said the same company makes MBL, bando, and genuine toyota rubber items but that doesn't mean they are the same quality. They said they've had really good luck with bando belts.

On the waterpump, I didn't know enough to ask at the time, but I don't think there's a toyota branded water pump and it's something like Asin(?). That's what they quoted with.

re: oil seepage at valve cover gaskets, this might be one of the down sides of keeping an engine detailed, since I may clean away slow seepage before it has a chance to build up and become visible. Can you describe a little more what I should be on the lookout for, and what it means, repair-wise? If I don't detail the engine for say the next 1000 miles would that be enough mileage for the seepage to show up if it's present?

[71Corolla]

1000 miles is enough to see oil leaks. MBL=Mitsuboshi Belting Limited, they make an excellent belt. Sounds like you got a good shop there, I'd go for the Toyota belt they look ever so slightly better, the rubber looks nicer, but that doesn't mean it's actually better. Aisin makes a whole slew of products including the water pump in your car, they are very durable.

edit - The valve cover gaskets often leak after about 10 years no matter what the mileage, the rubber shrinks. You can try tightening the nuts a bit (be careful here, don't bottom them out and break them) they come loose due to the design of the nuts/rubber washers. On my 1MZ every single one of them was finger tight, I cinched them down with a 1/4" driver.