Red Coolant Alternate

[Just Out of Reach]

My local dealer wants $32 for a gallon of red coolant.

Has anybody else found a silicate/borate-free coolant that is comparable to the organics/OEM Toyota Red? Like at NAPA or something?

(I know Prestone isn't rec'd for replacement on TOYs and don't want to damage seals/pump).

[LynchburgCSI]

I think peak and valvoline offer something like that...

[Zembonez]

Any parts store should have an equivalent. Just make sure it lists 100% Toyota comparability (probably on their web site) Coolant has gone way up around here.

[Just Out of Reach]

Originally Posted by Zembonez

Any parts store should have an equivalent. Just make sure it lists 100% Toyota comparability (probably on their web site)

They ALL claim theirs is for Toyotas - even Prestone does.

What I found was PEAK Long Life.
The label says "Phosphate and Silicate Free" but doesn't mention borate?
Do people here think it's equivalent and able to mix with any of the red that gets left in the block after a couple drain-outs?

The reason I ask is because the Toyota Red apparently has high phosphates, which are used to corrosion-proof the aluminum whereas the PEAK is phosphate-free. Is avoiding the silicates but losing the phosphates OK?

PEAK says that there are hundreds of different acids than can be used to corrosion-proof the metals, meaning that one of these can do the same job as phosphate; but then, of course they're going to say that.

I'd think that as big as the market is, somebody would make a coolant formula for TOYs/Honda.
I know that using Prestone-green with the silicates can cause pitting, head gasket or pump failure on TOYs.

(Had to chuckle at the salesman who tried to get me to buy premixed. "It costs less and you only use half as much". When I tried to explain it takes twice as much, he said "No, only half. See? it says 50/50".)

EDIT:: Zerex makes a TOY-OEM coolant:
http://www.valvoline.com/products/co...antifreeze/105
Unfortunately it's not sold in my area and it only comes in pre-mix, so you have to buy 2.

[deadrx7conv]

Peak Global and Zerex Asian are the 2 that I use. I wouldn't waste money at a dealer.

I usually find the Peak at Kmart and Zerex at Napa.

[Just Out of Reach]

Unfortunately, my NAPA doesn't carry Zerex, nobody has the PEAK Global and the dealer can't deliver until next week. I was hoping to do it over the weekend so I bought the PEAK LongLife but then had second thoughts. (From what I can tell on the specs, it's virtually the same as PEAK Global.)

One thing I learned it that one reason for the move to 50/50 products is that it prevents people from using tap water, the local chemistry of which can change the balance of today's specific-brand coolants.

[Just Out of Reach]

After studying up on coolant composition and differences, I decided the best is TOY RED; followed by Zerex Asian; followed by non-green Peak.

TOY Red has phosphates that protect the aluminum but no Silicates or Borates that can harm gaskets/seals. However, TOY Red is only best if the system has never been changed out with American-style green (like Prestone), because once silicates have been introduced, the TOY Red will allow them to drop out of solution and build up. If the RED has been changed out, go with PEAK (but not the green). Newer TOYs use TOY PINK which is different.

Zerex Asian is the only thing on the American market that is the same formula as Toyota (has phosphate but no silicate). However, because it comes premixed, you have to buy twice as much. So, depending on your dealer (and your NAPA), it may be cheaper to buy TOY RED and distilled water. Looks like the only place to buy Zerex is at some NAPA stores.

The only difference between Peak Longlife and PEAK Global is that Global has an additive which allows it to top-off a vehicle using DexCool-type (GM or some Euros). Though the PEAK products are silicate-free, they lack the phosphate protection, replacing it with a different acid. It would work for replacing non-TOY RED coolant (in a system that's been running something non-OEM, and would need a full flush).

The silicate and phosphate free coolants are called OAT (Organic Acid). These Camrys like HOAT (Hybrid OAT). Anytime a different formula is used, the system should be well-flushed because, I learned, coolants do not mix well, regardless of label claims.

Some people will say that coolant is coolant. But I learned that isn't true today like it was 15 years ago (if somebody tells you that, ask them their age ). Surprisingly, the Japanese formula has never been commonly available in the US (you'd think they'd jump on this market) and people have happily used American-green. I also know that I used to just use Prestone and the first thing to go out on all my TOYs was the water pump and a couple times, gaskets. So this time I asked here and studied up. Oddly, TOY manual specs aren't picky at all and neither are many of the dealers but then again most shops will put tap water in.

Prestone makes a Long-Life and there are house brands, too, but none seem to have the formulas that the above three have. Silicates and Borates are sharp, microscopically, and take their toll on the aluminum and gaskets in the Japanese-style parts (which can be rubber, nylon), whereas they are needed in the American style systems (lead solder, copper parts).

[Just Out of Reach]

I went with the TOY RED because:
a)That way I didn't have to retrofit, by changing out all of the old. I just drained the radiator and block, mixed 50/50 in a jug and filled 'er up.
b)The Zerex Asian turned out to cost as much and NAPA would have had to order it. Dealer agreed to sent a parts runner by for me

The Check Engine light stayed on until I burped and filled.

[fenixus]

Originally Posted by deadrx7conv

Peak Global and Zerex Asian are the 2 that I use. I wouldn't waste money at a dealer.

I usually find the Peak at Kmart and Zerex at Napa.

last time I checked Toyota RED (Long Life) comes up cheaper than any quality aftermarket premixed coolant, because RED is 100% concentrate and after adding distilled water (~$0.70 at local Walgreens per gallon) total was same or even lower than for Zerex or other stuff. but i heard toyota jacked up RED price, so i dunno.

I lost Bosch Water Pump in as little as 1.5yrs/12k miles with system running on green coolant. screw aftermarket coolants, IF RED does the job right and cost same or lower.

[Just Out of Reach]

The cost of the RED was currently $27 (less than they quoted when I called). So it came out less than the Zerex for me. The bottle says, in part:
Long Life
Factory Red Fluid
A new generation...premium formulated for Toyotas.
Does not contain silicates that harm water pump seals
Does not contain borates that cause aluminum corrosion/pitting

The dealer said this last longer than the OEM from the 1990s.
Given how clean my old stuff was, I'd expect this to last 60-100k.

On the 1MZ V6, after draining the radiator and block, it took exactly one gallon RED and one gallon distilled water (including a little in the overflow rez).

I used to run 60/40 but I'm sure 50/50 is fine. The label says 50-60% gives -34 to -69F (265-273F). With everything premixed at 50/50, running 60% is becoming rare I guess.

Looks like the RED is actually imported from Japan, so shipping is half the cost. (Again, the US market is ripe for a TOY-specific coolant. Zerex has no competition so they only sell at NAPA and at high cost).

[gyjoe]

It says on the (plain nondiluted) Prestone jug that it is silicate, phosphate, borate, and nitrite free, provides extended rust and corrosion protection, and extended protection to all engine cooling system metals including aluminum.

[cf99]

Originally Posted by Just Out of Reach

On the 1MZ V6, after draining the radiator and block, it took exactly one gallon RED and one gallon distilled water (including a little in the overflow rez).

That's good to know. If memory serves, the full capacity is 9.6 qts (not sure if that includes some amount in the o-flow rez), so 1.6 quarts is still in the heater core, right?

If you drain,fill with distilled,run with heater on,drain again, do this a couple times so all old coolant is flushed, then drain the radiator and block again, you're left with 1.6 qts of distilled in the heater core I think.

To end up with a 50/50 mix of new red, after following the above procedure to flush a couple times with distilled, you'd add 9.6/2=4.8 qts of new red (call it a gallon plus a quart for easier measurement), and however much distilled you need to top it off, plus some distilled in the reservoir.

Is that correct?

[deadrx7conv]

Zerex was $12 a gallon at Napa. $24 for 2 gallons.
You used $27 gallon dealer red. Hows that cheaper? And, you still have to buy that gallon of distilled water too.

I also add in the time and cost to drive to the dealer. If they're local to you, thats great. Napa is in almost every town around here usually within 5 minutes. Dealer is 30 minute drive. I'd waste a gallon or two of gas($7) to make it to/fro the dealer compared with the buck of gas I need to get to/from Napa.

If you maintain your coolant properly, you'll never have to worry about flushes and 'block' or 'heater core' amounts, and trying to figure out the ratios.

I've never lost a water pump because of coolant. I have seen some fail(more so now) because of crappy assembly line work. Don't confuse the two. Got taken by Bosch or bootleg quality lately??? The local dealer has had so many low mileage water pump failures on pink under warranty(3.5/5.7) makes you wonder where these WP's are coming from. Says much about the coolant or the WP quality. Green doesn't cause WP failure.

Zerex Asian has a Napa pn. ALL NAPAS CAN GET IT. So, unfortunately, someones Napa lied to them. You can even order it at napaonline.

Peak Global is hit/miss at Kmart/Sears because they're so poorly managed. Kmart auto dept is pretty much dead collecting dustballs. But, if you hit the store/dept manager up, it'll show up on the shelves. Peak Global can be found elsewhere too. Make an effort to look as it could be in the auto section of your local supermarket or drug store, or smaller/local dept or hardware store chain, or the other auto part stores.

If you want to use the Prestone allmakes/allmodels/allflavors/allcuring.... then go ahead. My recommendation is only to reduce the interval in half and it should serve you well. I'm not a fan of much maligned Dexclones since most don't use it properly.

I also just drain/refill the radiator, dis/reconnect hoses, and clean out the recovery bottle. I haven't flushed a cooling system that I owned in over a decade. Why? Its not needed if you don't push the coolant to beyond its capability.

[Just Out of Reach]

Originally Posted by deadrx7conv

Zerex was $12 a gallon at Napa. $24 for 2 gallons.
You used $27 gallon dealer red. Hows that cheaper? And, you still have to buy that gallon of distilled water too.

I also add in the time and cost to drive to the dealer.
Green doesn't cause WP failure.

I also just drain/refill the radiator, dis/reconnect hoses, and clean out the recovery bottle. I haven't flushed a cooling system that I owned in over a decade. Why? Its not needed if you don't push the coolant to beyond its capability.

NAPA wanted over $14 = $29
Dealer $27 + $.65 distilled water= $27.65
TOY Parts runner= free delivery
NAPA wanted 5 days to get it in. They do not offer coolant online.

Green has silicates which wear pump seals and borates which corrode aluminum. It doesn't have the phosphate anti-corrosion that TOYs were engineered for. Some people do fine with it but it's not worth the risk IMO.

As for changing coolant, it's preventative maintenance. The 90s stuff breaks down just like oil does. When the 90s models gets old/high mileage, the coolant loses its anti-corrosive and lubricant properties.

[fenixus]

are you seriously guys arguing about a few $ difference in a coolant fill that lasts 2-3 years (in case of RED)?

I would say, that discussion is getting ridiculous

just use RED people, it was designed for THIS car and it works fine, no worries about ANY side effects on ANYTHING, really no kidding ...

if you are unsure of your coolant condition and on going corrosion (due to electrolysis) just measure voltage between coolant fluid surface and chassis ground. anything below 150mV is OK .

on a 3 year old RED coolant in my 1mz-fe i've seen 13mV ... good as new. this one was always fed with RED, never a problem with cooling system.

on a 2 year old RED coolant in my 5s-fe I've seen up to 50mV ... slightly worse, but still good. this car had a doubtful pleasure of running on green coolant ... and lost almost new bosch water pump pump in 12k miles (gasket went out). before that my initial oem wp started running loud, because I neglected changing coolant (was RED) and it was the factory one ~7 years / 55k miles ... still never had a problem with cooling system, changed to bosch water pump because the oem one was loud, heating was working fine still. now running again on oem pump and RED coolant... really what's the point of using that green crap? to save $4 (or even zero in some regions) and loose a water pump after 2 years?