97 Camry Won't Start - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

jonw · 07-16-2011, 11:19 AM

After changing the head gasket the car simply will not start, turn it over all day long and it acts like it wants to start, it also seems like its getting way to much fuel. oh and its the 2.2 liter motor

I posted this same issue a month ago and this is a spare car so i kinda tinker with it when I have the time. Well my dad ran the car hot and blew the head gasket and I got the head reworked and put it all back together and it still will not start. I'm to the point Im ready to just give up. Cam and timing belt are properly set, I even had a mechanic come out and re-check and make sure its not out of time. He ran the codes and said it needs a new crank position sensor and I put a new one in same issue. Now he suggested it might be the oil pressure sensor. Seems to me like the oil pressure sensor is simply there to turn the idiot light on and off but I could be wrong. Can someone just please tell me the bare bone sensors I need to go over and check to make this car run, and if it helps what might cause the injectors to spray to much fuel in. It seems like it would have to be something in the efi to cause this but I have had no luck finding what sensor or issue it could be :/. thanks for any help you provide

dc_98_cam · 07-16-2011, 12:07 PM

Something like that happened to me .... a few years ago. I had the heads reworked and put them back on the car... a GM 350 .... nothing I could do would get the car to start.

After two or three months of frustration, I removed the heads again and took them to a different machine shop and had the valves ground a second time. I put the heads back on and the car started up with no problems. It looks like the original shop had ground the valves to an incorrect angle or specification .... giving poor or no compression.
This was particularly difficult to assess on a newly rebuilt engine ... with parts not really sealing like they would later.

It is unlikely that this is what happened to your car ...

I would check for spark to the cylinders ... If you have a timing light, you can use that to determine if there is a spark going to the spark plugs.

After a few revolutions of the engine, you can remove one of the spark plugs and see if the tip is wet with gasoline, which would indicate that fuel is getting to the cylinders.

Check to verify that there is compression in the cylinders. Remove one of the spark plugs and use a compression gauge. Alternately, you can just use finger tip to verify that the cylinders are pressurizing as a piston comes to TDC ...
The latter method just confirms that the cylinder valves are in fact sequencing to allow compression to occur.

Finally, there is timing ... which can be observed by rotating the crank with the starter until you have compression on the no. 1 cylinder, and then observing the timing mark on the harmonic balancer approach the 0 degree mark located on the timing chain cover.

If the items mentioned here seem to be in order, start looking for something obvious that is unhooked or not connected .... air flow sensor, any loose vacuum hose.
The engine will start without the cam position sensor ... I've done that before.

If I were to make a remote, uninformed guess, I would say that something is amiss with the timing ... even though you have had it inspected. It seems like that particular problem is statistically what causes most difficulties

Hope you have the time to report your results and efforts to the forum here. Just interested to see what you come up with.

jonw · 07-16-2011, 01:23 PM

Well I just got done rechecking the timing belt, and I checked the cam notches to make sure those were also properly set. The motor seems to have good compression, I haven't used a gauge but its all you can do to turn the crank when the spark plugs are installed on the compression stroke, exhaust and intake are all easy to turn as your turning the crank with a wrench. Here is a couple things I'm scratching my head on and could cause some issues.

There is a ground strap on the backside of the motor I had to remove near where your cam position sensor goes, I ended up bolting it up to the intake simply because I wasn't sure where it went. I know sometimes improperly grounded motors can cause massive issues.

Also I didn't mess with or clean the intake, maybe cleaning the IAC should be done, this car does have 225k on it.

I'm going to replace all vacuum hoses just to rule that out cause I could have a vacuum issue. Does anyone have any good vacuum diagrams to this car, maybe I have some hoses hooked up in the wrong places.

When I was messing with the intake I pulled the throttle controls off, I forgot the name but I removed the part that has the butterfly valve that controls the air intake. Throttle body I think is the name. I think your supposed to reset that valve and stuff a certain way right? Maybe I've knocked that out of adjustment.

I've checked for spark both by laying the plug on the block and turning the motor over, and by using a timing light, as far as I can tell shes getting spark to all plugs. But it appears the injectors are spraying way to much gas, so much that its soaking the plugs and fouling them out. Any ideas on what would cause the injectors to spray so much gas? This keeps leading me back to the IAC or maybe the tps, but I'm not sure if this car has a tps sensor. I really wish I new what bare bones sensors this car needed to run so I could focus more on the problem sensors
Sorry I didn't mean tps sensor I was meaning I don't think this car has a mass airflow sensor, I think these use a absolute manifold pressure sensor.

Thanks again for any information anyone gives me xD.

dc_98_cam · 07-16-2011, 01:46 PM

There is an ECU-IG fuse .... is that good?
... It is located in the Instrument Panel Fuse Box .... lower left of dash panel ... left of steering column.

dc_98_cam · 07-16-2011, 01:56 PM

Something of a project ... but you might take a look a the IAC.
There was a recent post ... and there is a DIY video ...
DIY removal & cleaning of IAC
If you have high mileage on your car ... a carbonized or dirty IAC might be the problem... Also there is some sort of motor or solenoid that needs to be checked out.

Stillrunning · 07-16-2011, 02:33 PM

If you've got spark (blue/bright not yellow/white) and compression, then fuel seems to be it as long as your timing is good. I'd also use a timing light to test spark at TDCC. Test the engine coolant temp sensor (not the fan switch) as that may cause excessive fuel if it's sending ECU signal that temp is colder than true ambient.

jonw · 07-16-2011, 10:22 PM

Well I checked for spark its good, checked the ohms on the coolant temp sensor and its just fine. This keeps leading me back to absolute manifold pressure sensor, also remember there is a ground strap on the back of the motor hooked up to the intake bolt. Think this ground is causing issues, also where does this ground go? Something is amiss causing this car to get way to much gas, also checked the injectors to make sure they were pulsing and not just spraying all the time.

jonw · 07-16-2011, 10:59 PM

Well I've brainstormed some new ideas, tell me what you guys think. From what I can tell the bare bones sensors this car needs to run are the tps, absolute manifold sensor, and the coolant temp sensor. Also I found out the fuel pressure regulator switch uses vacuum and this is a high mileage car with brittle vacuum hoses so I'm wondering if it might be cracked or busted, and to add to that I had to remove and fiddle with the injector rail and could have busted that hose. Well I've checked and ruled out the coolant temp sensor, so its down to tps, and absolute manifold pressure sensor. Anyone know how to check these 2 sensors. From what I can gather either the pulse width is to long or the fuel pressure is to high. Also I removed the throttle body and stuff so don't you have to reset the throttle body and stuff, anyone know how you do this?

sam333 · 07-17-2011, 01:52 AM

Even if the engine was set up properly ,if it got flooded to begin with it can be hard to start till the extra fuel is cleared out. Pull and clean the plugs then push the throttle wide open and crank. If it floods again check your fuel pressure and fuel pressure regulator. You cant do this type of trouble shooting without a manual.

dc_98_cam · 07-17-2011, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonw

Also I removed the throttle body and stuff so don't you have to reset the throttle body and stuff, anyone know how you do this?

Did you check the center pin to outer pin resistances on the Idle Air Control motor/solenoid? Seem to recall that each resistance should measure 19-23 ohms .... as I recall. Did you measure these two values?
There is a helpful picture ... see link that I inserted in above message.
If this thing isn't working, I don't think the engine will start.

Stillrunning · 07-17-2011, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonw

so its down to tps, and absolute manifold pressure sensor.

I don't think TPS would have that much influence on fuel to the point you'd get flooding. If the fuel pressure regulator vacuum diaphragm is defective it could be putting raw fuel into the intake. As well a defective purge valve (evap system) can send raw fuel into the intake. Have you tried holding the gas pedal to the floor when trying to start? I doubt a ground strap is causing this, but when in doubt clean the connections, same goes for vacuum lines, if you feel they are cracked, replace them.

jonw · 07-17-2011, 09:42 AM

Well I do have a shop manual but honestly I hate using the Haynes manual its not really a very descriptive book, my car is in our shop about 20 miles from here so that's the only reason I'm trying to brainstorm everything and then go out there and mess with it. Now on the tps your right about it not having enough of a effect to keep it from running if its working and just not set right, but if its completely broken or not hooked up the car won't start to save your life. At least this is how the older toyota trucks, we worked on one onetime and if you didn't set it just right the motor would rev up and down over and over but it did start as you said it started, left it unhooked and you could turn it over forever and nothing would happen.

Back to the flooding yes I always take the plugs back out and turn the motor over to get all that extra fuel out and then dry the plugs off. But I don't have a fuel pressure gauge so im kinda in the dark for checking the fuel pressure which does not help the situation at all. I am definitely going to check the fuel pressure regulator and make sure it doesn't have any gas in the vacuum lines and the line is in good shape.

I can't work on the car till Tuesday but come Tuesday I'm going to do like you guys said and clean and ohm that IAC valve out and make sure thats not the problem.

Sorry guys I'm not good with forums or I would have quoted each part into each section, if anyone knows how to do multiple quotes on here let me know how and I will try to keep my messages more organized.

Thanks for all the advice though it really helps me for brainstorming and if anyone has anymore advice please throw it out there, I'm just trying to get a plan for when I go back to the shop and mess with it.

Btw I keep thinking its not anything broken but something I have knocked out of wack or have unhooked, the car would run before even with the blown head gasket, might have ran terrible but it did run. As I took the car apart I had a lot of vacuum lines break on me and even some plastic parts break that I had to replace. This car is a high mileager so everything was so brittle, this is why I keep asking if anyone knows any vacuum diagrams cause I'm worried maybe I got some stuff crossed up, I've checked all the plugs to the sensors and as far as I can tell everything is properly hooked up, there isn't any mystery sensors just sitting there unplugged, well take that back there is one that I have to replace the coolant temp sensor to the gauge is busted out but I don't think it would have any bearing on keeping the car from starting. Already verified its just the sensor to the temp gauge by grounding it to the block and it pegged the gauge out in the car.

corolla_nut_83 · 07-17-2011, 10:23 AM

yeah you should definately try to find a vacuum diagram!! If you think you might have something hooked up wrong the best way to find out is to compare to a know good car!! Your IAC wont let your car start only if its completely closed, and if you didn't removed the IAC motor and mess with it chances of it going bad are slim to none on your preticular car. You said you messed with the furl rail? Make sure that all the rubber grommets got reinstalled sealing the injectors to the intake manifold. You might also install a known good fuel pressure regulator. Just to make sure.

As far as the ground strap is concerned as long as it is clean, tight, and connected to the engine it will be fine. Also I know you checked timing and all that, but with out a service manual how do you know the marks are correctly lined up? It is possible to put your cams in 180 out without damaging anything.

Lastly for now until I think of something else you might check and see if you distributor is timed up correctly. If it has a helical gear on the end its not that hard to get it installed two teeth off. Although it would probably backfire through the intake or the exhaust depending on which way the teeth were off.

I'll do my best to post a vacuum diagram for you before monday night

corolla_nut_83 · 07-17-2011, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corolla_nut_83

yeah you should definately try to find a vacuum diagram!! If you think you might have something hooked up wrong the best way to find out is to compare to a know good car!! Your IAC wont let your car start only if its completely closed, and if you didn't removed the IAC motor and mess with it chances of it going bad are slim to none on your preticular car. You said you messed with the furl rail? Make sure that all the rubber grommets got reinstalled sealing the injectors to the intake manifold. You might also install a known good fuel pressure regulator. Just to make sure.

As far as the ground strap is concerned as long as it is clean, tight, and connected to the engine it will be fine. Also I know you checked timing and all that, but with out a service manual how do you know the marks are correctly lined up? It is possible to put your cams in 180 out without damaging anything.

Lastly for now until I think of something else you might check and see if you distributor is timed up correctly. If it has a helical gear on the end its not that hard to get it installed two teeth off. Although it would probably backfire through the intake or the exhaust depending on which way the teeth were off.

I'll do my best to post a vacuum diagram for you before monday night

Seeing how this engine is probably a non dis system, you also might try swapping coil connectors, or try checking for vacuum at the throttle body by removing the intake tube and placing your hand over the throttle body and have someone crank the engine. Your hand should be pulled tight against the opening. If not you might have a timing issue. I looked in alldata and couldn't find a full vacuum diagram so a manual or the hood of the vehicle is were you find something better.

jonw · 07-17-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corolla_nut_83

yeah you should definately try to find a vacuum diagram!! If you think you might have something hooked up wrong the best way to find out is to compare to a know good car!! Your IAC wont let your car start only if its completely closed, and if you didn't removed the IAC motor and mess with it chances of it going bad are slim to none on your preticular car. You said you messed with the furl rail? Make sure that all the rubber grommets got reinstalled sealing the injectors to the intake manifold. You might also install a known good fuel pressure regulator. Just to make sure.

As far as the ground strap is concerned as long as it is clean, tight, and connected to the engine it will be fine. Also I know you checked timing and all that, but with out a service manual how do you know the marks are correctly lined up? It is possible to put your cams in 180 out without damaging anything.

Lastly for now until I think of something else you might check and see if you distributor is timed up correctly. If it has a helical gear on the end its not that hard to get it installed two teeth off. Although it would probably backfire through the intake or the exhaust depending on which way the teeth were off.

I'll do my best to post a vacuum diagram for you before monday night

No I have a service manual I was just meaning it sucks for efi work, very vague on checking sensors and ect, bottom side hits the 0 mark, and the top hole lines up with the cam mark on the very top of the head, idk what its called but the top and bottom marks are lined up perfectly. Also the cams are right, both my machinist and my book clearly describe how to set them, you lined the big hole in the gear with the 2 small holes on the other gear of the cam. Trust me guys I've probably spent 12 hours total checking and rechecking timing so I've completely ruled that out, almost pulled my hair out a few times messing with the timing but I finally figured out how to set it and checked it a couple times. This is car doesn't have a distributer so thankfully I don't have to mess with that, I've had my fair share of not setting them things right on the older 350 chevy motors. Changed all the injector grommets and o-rings so the rail should be set right.

The grounding strap is clean and tightly bolted to a stud on the intake so as far as I can tell it should be both grounding the intake and the head properly. Never bothered the IAC but I do remember ohming it and it was right on the money, forgot about that, but I didn't put power to it and actually check the valve operation maybe I need to do that.

See how this car has became a nightmare so of the most obvious I have mostly ruled out, its just down to the nit picky stuff. But when I had to mess with the fuel rail I wiggled it a lot setting those injectors back in and what not, as brittle as the vacuum lines are as it is and as easily overlooked as that vacuum line is I could have easily busted it clean in two. Some vacuum lines just crumbled in my hands as I pulled them off. I think the best thing is Tuesday for sure is to replace all vacuum lines and hopefully have a vacuum diagram to make sure everything is where it should be. Do you or anyone else know if any of the emissions stuff would cause the car to dump fuel? It looks like either the injectors are pulsing to long or the fuel pressure is to high.

I'm also wondering about this, what the car does when I've got the gas all cleaned out and not flooded it turns over and hits and sounds just like its about to crank and then bam floods out so bad it just stops.