Suspension Overhaul

[ceri]

First time poster here. I apologize in advance. I'm not a toyota owner myself, but my mom drive's a camry. Does that count? My cousin drives a North American '99 lexus ES300, which I believe is very similar to the '99 camry. I've seen Toyotanation pop up online quite a bit now and in the past, so I figure you guys are the place to come to.

He's in need of some suspension work, and it's 116* in my garage right now. I plan on getting in there and finding out everything that's wrong, then buying replacement parts online to try to save him some cash. We haven't gotten a quote from a shop, but I'm guessing he'd be quoted something in the $1000+ range, using crap parts, and only fixing the worst things. I'd like to replace almost everything for him so his car is good to go for another decade. So far, upon visual inspection, all his bushings are shot. I changed a blown front passenger tire on the highway in this 116* heat today, but I didn't have the willpower to really dig around at the time. He's wearing really bad on the outer tire edges. It could just be the bushings, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got tie rod or control arm problems too. He burned through 2 brand new tires down to the steel belts in less than a year.

So now I get to the point of my post. How is the suspension setup? How many ball joints, control arms, sway bars, etc. am I going to be looking at front and back? Does anyone have some good pictures of a '99 (or similar) with the wheels off? Are there any big concerns to be worried about going in? I've rebuilt the front end on my truck before, so I've got a pretty good idea of what we're getting into, but I know trucks can be pretty different from cars. I've got a pitman arm puller and a pickle fork already, and if necessary, we can rent a ball joint press. Will we need any other specialty tools?

Are there any recommended brands for suspension related components for these cars? I personally went with Moog for my truck, but I've already run across a thread on here with bad opinions of Moog on Toyotas.

I plan on buying most everything from www.rockauto.com as I've had good luck with them in the past. If anyone has a better (cheaper) source, I'd be open to it. I've attempted some searching, but it's tricky tracking down images. Lastly, does anyone have a link to suspension torque specs or a dealer service manual?

I'm on a fact finding mission, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks nation!

-A humble forum noob

[bigbird]

how man depends on how much you wanna replace. if the issue is only on one wheel then i wouldnt bother replacing ball joints and such anywhere else. wait till they go bad.

that issue could be a couple of things. does the steering feel sloppy at all?

[ceri]

Originally Posted by bigbird

how man depends on how much you wanna replace. if the issue is only on one wheel then i wouldnt bother replacing ball joints and such anywhere else. wait till they go bad.

that issue could be a couple of things. does the steering feel sloppy at all?

Well, the reason to replace them all is because I'd already be there, and obviously my cousin's not much on the more involved car maintenance. Instead of taking the car to a mechanic, he's been putting new tires on it every year. I don't know exactly how long it's been this way, but awhile.

The steering is sloppy. He describes it like, if driving in a straight line on the freeway, every once in awhile it will lurch about 2 feet in either direction. He'll still basically be going straight, but he'll have hopped 2 feet to the left or right. I'm thinking that can be accounted for by the completely eroded bushings. With the wheel jacked up, I was able to wobble it every which way freely. About 2 iches of play with one hand without planting my feet. That's just the front. I haven't touched the back yet, and wont until this weekend.

Thanks bigbird!

[ceri]

I'm basically looking for a complete overhaul of the suspension system from the rack and pinion to the hubs. I just need to know what I'm getting into.

Are there upper or lower a-arms?

How many ball joints?

What kind of stabilizer system?

Are caster, camber, and toe adjustable on this car?

I'm sorry to be asking, but I just drove home and the truck was reading 118*F. I'm not eager to rip into it, figure it all out, then put it all back together while I wait for parts to arrive. Someone must know how the suspension is setup on these cars.

[bolink654]

I've been thinking about this too. I'm considering grabbing one of these sets
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUSPE...item20b8dd4add

No idea on quality, but its gotta be better than the moog Look around ebay and you can find similar sets, maybe cheaper.

And also struts, all bushings, steering rack & pinion, and new rear lateral arms.

And maybe a strut bar and them TRD swaybars. But those would be just for fun.

So to recap, I'd think you'd need
Ball joints
inner & outer tie rod ends.
Struts (and spring isolators)
all Bushings
Front and rear swaybar end links
Steering rack & pinion
rear lateral arms

Anything I missed?

I'm thinking of doing it because my struts are going, the ball joints are going, and the rack & pinion leaks. I also have knocks, thumps and squeaks at all 4 corners. I figure might as well spend a few hundred, get it aligned once, and continue on for another 200k

[reidcc]

Many times knocks can just be sway bar mounts or end links.

The thing I found that sux on replacing struts- is the strut mounts. They are nearly the cost of each strut, and my last car didn't use Strut mounts.

The back is even worse- because you need to completely remove the back seat and ALL the trim around the quarter and package shelf just to get to the upper strut mount.

Chris

[ceri]

Update for posterity since I got it pretty much torn down today.

The front suspension consists of:

Lower control arms
Front front control arm bushings
Front rear control arm bushings
Lower ball joints (3 bolts hold it to the control arm, NOT press out which is awesome)
Sway bar
"S-style" sway bar end links (aka stablizer bars)
Strut (mounts directly to the steering knuckle with 2 bolts)
Strut coils
Strut dampers (the main body of it)
Bearing plates
Upper and lower spring isolators
Upper spring seat
Boot (or boot kit)
CV axles (I bought one remanufactured full assembly which I assume includes the u-joints and boots on both ends. The other looks and feels fine)
Stearing knuckles (being reused)
Hub assembly (reusing for now, but going to test them once I get it back together)
Tie rods (I'm only replacing the outers)
Outer tie rod ends
Inner tie rods

I think that's about it.
Here's a few pictures I took for my cousin during the tear down (if it lets me post them):







One CV axle's boot was ripped open and there was oily moisture slung up everywhere (I'm assuming it's transmission fluid?). I've not had any personal experience with CV axles in my trucks, nor a front wheel drive car. The entire trans-axle is new to me.

It was surprisingly easy to work on this car. I've only ever worked on domestic trucks, and I'd always heard that import brands were difficult. The ball joints and tie rod ends popped easy. Pressing in new control arm bushings has been the toughest part, but they're always tough. It sure would help if I had a table vice. I had to enlist the aid of my neighbor to help me hold it while I used a ball joint press to push them in, and even then I had a 3 foot cheater pipe on the end of my ratchet and the other hand helping him hold it still.

I was stupid and didn't take the axle nut off before pulling the cv axle. As a result, it was tricky getting the hub detached from the cv. Lesson learned there.

My cousin needs a brake job, and I still have to install the new parts tomorrow. After that, tires and an alignment. We picked up a free take-off wheel at Discount Tire mounted on his rim just to get it off the side of the freeway. That was grade A of Discount Tire. Didn't pay a dime, and honestly the tire looks better than his other 3. Unfortunately it's slightly different dimensions (225/55R16 vs. 205/60R16). It's barely off on diameter, but obviously it's a good bit wider. As a result, we'll need to get the new wheels before an alignment.

Tomorrow I just have to plug the new CV axle in, slap some bolts together, and he should be rolling by noon. Then I get to scold him about the sorry state his engine is in. His coolant overflow is bone dry, and it looks like there's some kind of timing cover gasket leak going on. He may have a cracked or warped head or just a leaky head gasket. It would explain both the empty coolant overflow and the fluid stains running down the front of the block. Or maybe his overflow just had the hose pop loose and it spilled all over the engine. He's into it so far for about $300, reusing the struts, sway bar components, and passenger cv axle. Add an alignment for around $60, new tires for $500-700, fluids and transmission filter (assuming it will need it after replacing the cv) for $50-100, whatever accounts for the coolant loss and fluid running down the block, and he should have a tip top car once again.

[google123]

Man the bushings on my 1996 Camry control arms look just like those. Would you suggest getting just the bushings or just replacing the arm instead? I don't have a press or anything to install the new bushings. Great pics btw. I'm getting ready to tear into the front and rear suspension of my car as well. It floats a lot while driving. The rear suspension has all kinds of knocking sounds coming from it and the car wants to fishtail a bit when I give it the go-pedal. I know I need shocks all around too.

[ceri]

If your not horribly concerned with the cheapest possible repair, I'd get new control arms with bushings. I think the price difference was about $50 each side ($100 total) vs. buying bushings alone and pressing them in. I've had to burn out brand new bushings before to replace them with polyurethane. If you have to get a blow torch, it's a messy 6 hour ordeal for each. Pressing them in does require a good bit of strength. I'm not exactly a body builder, but I'm about 26 years old, and 6' 270 lbs and I know how to throw my weight around. It takes me using a cheater bar to operate the ball joint press effectively and I'm pretty sore this morning. We're probably talking about 200 ft. lbs. of torque for about 40 or 50 turns, and it's harder if you don't have a table vice to hold them still for you.

With new arms, you're paying $100 to avoid about 2 hours of work and hassle. My cousin's a cheap skate and he just started a new job, so money is pretty tight for him. He's driving an hour each way to his new job, so he needs reliable transportation.

With the ball joints, it's highly recommended that you buy a pickle fork (aka ball joint separator) and have a sledge hammer handy. It takes a bunch of whacks with a regular steel claw hammer, but with a sledge it only takes a few light taps. It's a lot harder on a truck. There I was taking the sledge up over my head and throwing my weight at it to get them to pop. A pickle fork will destroy your ball joint boots, so make sure you've got a replacement ball joint if you use one. There are other methods for removing ball joints if you need to keep them alive.

From what I've noticed, bad bushings will cause a lot of wobble in the front end and burn through tires. Since the suspension is so relatively simple, the bushings have a bigger impact on these cars.

Let me know if I can help! Since this is the only thread I've ever posted on, I get notifications sent to my email.

[ceri]

Update and question:

I got it all buttoned up yesterday and took it for a test drive. Any time I barely turn the car to the left I get a slight squeek. If I jerk it hard to the left, the squeek is louder. Basically the volume of the squeek depends on the degree that I'm turning left in it. My suspicion is the cv axle I replaced. It may also have something to do with the control arm bushings. I greased the front front bushings to get them in their holes. The rears press in with a metal collar, so no grease for them. They weren't perfectly aligned the way they should be, but I figured with the grease they could settle themselves with the weight of the car over time.

Two other symptoms:
1. The "BRAKE" light is on constantly. I didn't touch brakes hardly at all. I removed the caliper and caliper bridge to do the suspension work, but didn't have to compress the caliper piston at all to get them on or off. If they moved, they barely moved. I did set the parking brake to work on it, and I don't know how often he ever uses the parking brake. I tried setting and unsetting it several times with no change, and tried pulling up on both the parking brake and the normal brake. The pads are nearing the end of their life if there's any sort of sensor, but I didn't see anything.

2. Just as I was turning in to park it for the night the oil light came on. I have no idea what that's about either. I didn't touch anything having to do with the oil. I'm not familiar with this car, so I don't know what conditions will trip the oil light. I also don't know if it was on before, but it only tripped at the end of my 5-10 minute drive.

When pulling the cv axle, I did have a bunch of transmission fluid come out. I got it all put back together and added some Lexus approved type T4 fluid back in, but it was high to begin with and so I didn't end up adding much at all. It was reading above the high level for "Hot" before I added any. I probably didn't even add a pint. After starting it up for the first time, I left the parking brake engaged and went through the gears for about 5 minutes to let the tranny fluid works its way in.

It could just be the front right tire which is worn well beyond anything I'd drive, and it could just be the alignment. The toe is off, but not horribly bad. I've got some bump steer and it needs a pro to align it, but it tracks pretty straight right now. He's got mismatched tire sizes on the front axle. The diameter on the right is less than an 1/8" larger than the left and slightly wider. Don't know if that's relevant, but I wanted you folks to have all the information. I also don't know if this is normal or not, but at idle, the car doesn't try to drift forward. It sits until I start pressing the pedal. Acceleration isn't as good as I might expect from a 6 cylinder, but again, I don't know how good it usually is.

I'm not to proud to admit I don't know what's going on. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

More pictures of the bushings for those interested:

[bolink654]

1. The "BRAKE" light is on constantly. I didn't touch brakes hardly at all. I removed the caliper and caliper bridge to do the suspension work, but didn't have to compress the caliper piston at all to get them on or off. If they moved, they barely moved. I did set the parking brake to work on it, and I don't know how often he ever uses the parking brake. I tried setting and unsetting it several times with no change, and tried pulling up on both the parking brake and the normal brake. The pads are nearing the end of their life if there's any sort of sensor, but I didn't see anything.

There is a sensor that will make that light come one when the brake fluid gets low, and usually when the pads are about worn out, it will come on since all the fluid is in the pistons instead of in the reservoir.

[BMR]

Originally Posted by ceri

Update and question:

I got it all buttoned up yesterday and took it for a test drive. Any time I barely turn the car to the left I get a slight squeek. If I jerk it hard to the left, the squeek is louder. Basically the volume of the squeek depends on the degree that I'm turning left in it. My suspicion is the cv axle I replaced. It may also have something to do with the control arm bushings. I greased the front front bushings to get them in their holes. The rears press in with a metal collar, so no grease for them. They weren't perfectly aligned the way they should be, but I figured with the grease they could settle themselves with the weight of the car over time.

It's hard to diagnose noises without hearing them. But on my Camry, I got a squeak-when-turning after replacing front struts that came from the strut bearing. Its seal was rubbing on the strut's bottom spring mount and giving a rubbery-sounding squeak. One side was really loud, so I took it apart and lubed it up. The other side went away after a while on its own.

1. The "BRAKE" light is on constantly. I didn't touch brakes hardly at all. I removed the caliper and caliper bridge to do the suspension work, but didn't have to compress the caliper piston at all to get them on or off. If they moved, they barely moved. I did set the parking brake to work on it, and I don't know how often he ever uses the parking brake. I tried setting and unsetting it several times with no change, and tried pulling up on both the parking brake and the normal brake. The pads are nearing the end of their life if there's any sort of sensor, but I didn't see anything.

Like bolink said, check the brake fluid level in the reservoir. There's a sensor in there that trips when low. Just a coincidence with the work you did, probably.

2. Just as I was turning in to park it for the night the oil light came on. I have no idea what that's about either. I didn't touch anything having to do with the oil. I'm not familiar with this car, so I don't know what conditions will trip the oil light. I also don't know if it was on before, but it only tripped at the end of my 5-10 minute drive.

His Lexus is in the sludger era for Toyota. Read this link. So it could be starving for oil due to sludge build up. Best way to check would be to pop the front valve cover and look. ...Or maybe it's just low on oil.

[tef]

The "BRAKE" light is on constantly.

On my Camry, sometimes the brake pedal does not return to the full out position causing the Brake light to remain on. I just pull on the brake pedal and out goes the light. Just another possibility.

[BMR]

^Ah, that reminds me of another possibility for the brake light. Could be the parking brake pedal isn't fully returning. My Camry does that often. Just pull it up with your toe.

[ceri]

Originally Posted by bolink654

There is a sensor that will make that light come one when the brake fluid gets low, and usually when the pads are about worn out, it will come on since all the fluid is in the pistons instead of in the reservoir.

Thanks bolink. I'll check that out when I get a chance. It's braking good, and he does have some usable pad life left, but I'd guess only around 3-4k miles before he hits the pad indicator.

Originally Posted by BMR

It's hard to diagnose noises without hearing them. But on my Camry, I got a squeak-when-turning after replacing front struts that came from the strut bearing. Its seal was rubbing on the strut's bottom spring mount and giving a rubbery-sounding squeak. One side was really loud, so I took it apart and lubed it up. The other side went away after a while on its own.

Like bolink said, check the brake fluid level in the reservoir. There's a sensor in there that trips when low. Just a coincidence with the work you did, probably.

His Lexus is in the sludger era for Toyota. Read this link. So it could be starving for oil due to sludge build up. Best way to check would be to pop the front valve cover and look. ...Or maybe it's just low on oil.

The squeak was instantaneous with any leftward movement at all. From wheel at dead center to a fraction of a millimeter to turned left. The further left, the more the noise. I also THINK I could make out some slight clicking noises, but it could have been another car near me I was hearing. I had my "mechanics ears" hanging out the window at the time, so a bird chirping would cause me to think something was wrong.

Looks like the sludge engine claim period has expired for him. That article mentions 8 years plus 120 days from delivery date from the first owner. I believe the oil light found an explanation today when he told me it's been 12k miles since his last conventional oil change. I believe toyotas and lexus' have an oil light that just lets you know it's been XXXX miles since the last change? Also, I checked today and he's got 185k miles on the engine. I don't think we're going to mess with the engine too much for fear of disturbing it's delicate balance of crapiness. It runs surprisingly good for 185k miles. It's just too hot to dig into engine work right now. At least with suspension I'm laying on the ground most of the time.

Originally Posted by tef

The "BRAKE" light is on constantly.

On my Camry, sometimes the brake pedal does not return to the full out position causing the Brake light to remain on. I just pull on the brake pedal and out goes the light. Just another possibility.

I tried this one and nothing changed, though I'm not sure how effective it was with the way the parking brake pedal mechanism works. He told me it's been on for awhile and he had a full brake system replacement about a year ago (calipers and all). If he's happy, I'm happy.

Originally Posted by BMR

^Ah, that reminds me of another possibility for the brake light. Could be the parking brake pedal isn't fully returning. My Camry does that often. Just pull it up with your toe.

Same as above. I tried pulling up on it and no change. I'm leaning toward the brake fluid being the culprit.


Lastly, I took it to NTB earlier today, explained all the recent work, and asked them to double check my work and anything else I may have missed. 2 hours later they came back to me and said the toe was out of spec. I told them I know the toe is out of spec. I'd explained all that to them when I got there. He then proceeded to try to sell me tires. I wasn't happy at all with that treatment, so I left and took it to another local tire store I've heard good things about. I met my cousin there so he could take delivery of it as well. On the drive over to this tire place the symptoms went from "iffy" to "oh my god!". I was hearing grinding and horrible rubbing sounds the entire way. I cruised about 20 mph for about 5 miles to limp it to the next shop. I was thinking bearings and so was the shop. They pulled it around, spent about 10 minutes with it and came back. He said the driverside bearings didn't look good and the driverside inner tie rods weren't great either. He quoted us $300. I told me cousin to go for it if he wants his car back this week so he agreed.

About 2 hours later my cousin got a call. Everything was fine with the car. The tie rods checked out and the bearings had passed some more thorough testing. The only problem was that someone had loosened 3 lug nuts on the driverside of the car and not tightened them back up. I know for a fact that I used my smaller torque wrench to torque every lug nut to precisely 76 ft. lbs per an online article I tracked down, so my only remaining conclusion is that NTB loosened them and sent me on my way riding on 2 lug nuts on that wheel. I HOPE it was just negligence and not deliberate to drum up some money. Either way I'm not going back there anymore. Idiocy is bad enough. Dirty tricks is a whole other ballpark of bad. Sad too because I'm about a month away from dropping $3k on my truck for some new rims and tires and I planned on using them.

So $95 later my cousin's got a used tire matched to the freebie from discount to replace the worst one, an alignment, and a clean bill of health on his suspension (or so I'm told). The front axle has tires that are slightly wider than the rears, but the diameters are virtually identical.

The brake system is yet to be determined, he needs an oil change, we need to figure out where all the coolant went, and I've told him he should get a transmission fluid change in the next month or so because of the cv replacement.

Total cost to him was about $400 out the door ($300 of that he's going to pay me back in installments as the paychecks start rolling in).