3rd & 4th Generation (1992–1996 & 1997–2001)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 1992-1996 & 1997-2001
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I have been trying to install my timing belt and get my car to run. The first time it ran fine for about 30 minutes and then the belt slipped. I put it back on again twice and it slipped both times and a lot -- in each case, the belt slipped and the cam gear rotated about 180 degrees off top dead center in relation to the crankshaft pulley at top dead center. I had gotten the belt on reasonably tight -- I think -- so I just can't figure what is wrong.
I don't have the bottom belt cover off right now and I'm wondering if that is where the slack is -- between the water pump and the crank shaft.
I think I have the right timing belt. It's a Mitsuboshi CD138. I bought a kit that included this belt.
Thank you for your help in advance!
Karen
Last edited by KarensCamry; 08-23-2011 at 05:48 PM.
That's too loose. Did you torque down the idler pulley and tensioner pulley? Did they come loose? I wonder if the belt's damaged and was stretching like a rubber band.
If the torques check out then I'd get a new tensioner spring (~$5 or so) and a new T199 timing belt from NAPA or O'Reilly (that should be a Gates belt but I'll take an Italian Dayco too). Gen 3 is tensioned at TDC. Manually rotate the engine 4 revs after torquing and double check the marks. Yeah, these manually tensioned engines aren't the easiest to set properly, but they cost less to make than using automatic tensioners.
T138 belt is for the older Gen 3 engines. It's superseded by T199. T138 uses a cheaper rubber (neoprene? nitrile? not sure) and T199 uses highly saturated nitrile rubber (or HNBR, Hydrogenated Nitrile Butadiene Rubber) that can stand higher temps better. But I'd still change both of them at 5yr/60K miles.
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John:
Thanks very much for your reply. The tensioner didn't come loose, but I will get a new spring and a new belt and see if that makes a difference. I appreciate your suggestions on the make of the belt.
I do tension the belt with both pulley's aligned to TDC, but why does that matter?
With it slipping that many times, I'd wonder if it has damaged some belt teeth if not stretched it, both perhaps making it slip easier.
When I put my new belt on, there wasn't much play in the belt with the tensioner untightened but spring on, and I rotated the engine numerous times to let the belt's tension sync throughout it's complete path before torquing. Then I torqued the pulley when there was already proper equal tension all the way each pulley. That seemed to work well in my circumstance, so far atleast.
Last edited by WaxonWaxStillOn; 08-24-2011 at 12:54 PM.
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I got the new timing belt you suggested. I tried one last time to get the old belt on tight and then rotate the engine a few times. With the lower cover still on, I got the belt seemingly tight -- at least it was tight between the water pump gear and the cam. I then released the tensioner pulley and rotated the engine. I rotated it once, and I heard the belt slip. It slipped two teeth.
I am going to pull the bottom cover off and put the new belt on and see if I can get it on tight all the way around. I'll let you know how that turns out!
Thanks for your help on this and pointing me in the right direction.
I put the new belt on and got it pretty tight on the front and the back. I rotated the engine twice slowly and the belt did not slip. The timing marks are pefect. I don't know whether I should really give it a quick turnover with my wrench or not.
I tried to get a new tensioner spring, but two NAPA stores didn't have them. My spring seems okay. One thing I did notice and this could have been causing me a problem: I put a new tensioner pulley on and it has a shorter slot in the middle of the pulley where the bolt passes through -- shorter than the original tensioner pulley. When you release the bolt on the new pullley, it didn't rise as far as the old pulley. So I put the old pulley back on -- with the longer slot -- and it does seem tighter.
BTW, the new Gates belt is about 1/4 inch shorter than the Mitsuboshi belt. That must make a difference in the slippage.
Rotate your camshaft pulley counter clockwise (towards the rear of the car) Until the belt between the camshaft pulley and the Water pump is tight. Tighten your Manual adjusting nut down, and crank the car over. the reason your supposed to rotate two revolutions is to make sure that the belt is guided properly over the camshaft and crankshaft. If you have about 1/8" Gap between the belt and the edge of the pulley on the camshaft pulley your belt will be ok.
I put the new belt on and got it pretty tight on the front and the back. I rotated the engine twice slowly and the belt did not slip. The timing marks are pefect. I don't know whether I should really give it a quick turnover with my wrench or not.
I'd think you're doing fine this time. Give it a few more turns.
The recommendation is to (slowly but no instruction mentions it) turn the crank two turns during the tensioning step (tensioner bolt 1/2 turn loose). I'd give it 4 turns (the belt has a tendency to jump teeth during this stage because of valve spring action). The marks should line up. It would be so much easier with an automatic tensioner.
And after tightening down the tensioner bolt, I'd give it 4 more turns and make sure the marks still line up. The engine should seem to run quieter, smoother, and more powerful than with an old belt and pulleys. Turning the crank slowly is fine, no need to turn fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarensCamry
I tried to get a new tensioner spring, but two NAPA stores didn't have them. My spring seems okay. One thing I did notice and this could have been causing me a problem: I put a new tensioner pulley on and it has a shorter slot in the middle of the pulley where the bolt passes through -- shorter than the original tensioner pulley. When you release the bolt on the new pullley, it didn't rise as far as the old pulley. So I put the old pulley back on -- with the longer slot -- and it does seem tighter.
I should have mentioned it's a dealer item. However, Dayco does include two in some of their timing kits, but no guarantee that they still do. The Gen 3 silver one is the older one and the timing belt is tightened at TDC; the green one is the newer one and the belt is tightened at 45 BTDC. The Gen 4 one (all silver) is slightly shorter and tightened at 45 BTDC because they had some defective timing belts stretching and tensioning problems too. That's another reason why I recommended a new belt and a new spring.
I'm not sure about the tensioner pulley slot. Maybe it's another Gen3/4 difference that I think shouldn't exist. I would think if the pulley didn't bottom then the belt would still have the proper tension set by the spring. Dunno. What brand was the tensioner? I see Koyo but more and more GMB tensioners in various Gates and Dayco timing kits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarensCamry
BTW, the new Gates belt is about 1/4 inch shorter than the Mitsuboshi belt. That must make a difference in the slippage.
The specification of both belts are the same. I think the Mitsuboshi belt is defective. Again, I prefer Gates belts (and hoses), but will take a Dayco over other belts.
Hopefully this new belt solves the problem. Let us know.
Thank you so much for your reply. I have the tensioner bolt tightened right now. Are you saying I should loosen it and turn the engine four times? Should I loosen the bolt just enough that the tensioner pulley is free to move?
Do you think the Toyota dealer would have a spring?
If it's already done then no need to repeat the work. I think the problem may be the belt, but the question would be why. Also, it would be nice if a correct, new tensioner pulley is installed too. Usually by 60K miles the grease is dry (clicking when you shake it), and by 90-100K they can be really noisy or even wobble a bit.
Maybe just run the engine until the cooling fan comes on once or twice. And then double check again the timing marks on the cam sprocket with the crank at TDC. You wouldn't want to drive 30 minute and then the engine quits.
(Quickly browsing through old threads I see that you took out the distributor and valve cover etc, but did you replace the water pump? I hope the pump isn't seizing. Did you see glazing on the back of this Mitsuboshi belt?)
John: I did replace the water pump. When I took out the defective belt (the one that seems to long), the belt did not show any wear at all. I will let you know how it goes when I get this back together and start it. I appreciate your help so much!
Karen
PS: the new pulleys are NTN and the water pump is GMB. I didn't use the NTN tensioner pulley because the slot is shorter.
Last edited by KarensCamry; 08-25-2011 at 10:18 AM.
I really thought I had it this time, but when I started the car, it was hard to start and then it finally started, but at low rpms it hesitated when I gave it gas. It ran for a while and then the engine quit.
I pulled the top cover back and I can see that the belt has skipped quite a bit.
What do you think I am doing wrong? The belt seemed really tight this time. Could the tensioner spring be at fault somehow? I ordered a new one.
Can I retension the belt without remiving the bottom cover?
maybe this is stating the obvious, but is there a possibility that something out of whack is causing so much resistance against the belt that it is forcing it to slip? does the crank and cams turn easily? if it has a hard time turning over something could be frozen up or binding. with the belt being the weakest chain in the link so to speak, it is going to give first.
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Last edited by nitronate33; 08-26-2011 at 04:09 PM.
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but once the tensioner pulley is torqued to 31 lbs. (iirc), the tension spring is irrelevant, since it's not going to move the pulley's position if that level of torque on it's mounting bolt is achieved. And if you inspected the belt's tension and found it rather snug around all the pulleys before torquing the tensioner pulley, the spring wouldn't be a factor imo.
I would be concerned with what nitonate33 said. The water pump, oil pump, tensioner pulley, and idler pulley should all spin easily by hand.
The crankshaft is generating the belt's movement, so that's not likely going to be the cause. The camshaft is turning because the engine is starting, albeit briefly, so it's definitely not frozen atleast. So I would probably make sure the other 4 items don't have any noticeable resistance when turning by hand.
(another thought would be making sure the belt is installed properly, over and under the pulleys in the proper sequence according to the diagram. There probably aren't many ways one could get it wrong and still get the right tension, but I almost did before I double checked it.)
Last edited by WaxonWaxStillOn; 08-26-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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You guys are wonderful. The cam slipped 180 degrees from dead center.
I will check everything that rotates and see if there is a problem. The cam is a bit stiff, but I can rotate it with the wrench. It seems like a vacumm is holding it back and then it lurches forward. The water pump is new and spins freely (the old water pump seized and that ruined the timing belt). I have replaced the two pulleys. They are made by NTN. The tensioner pulley is a little stiff in turning compared with the old one, but I figured that's because it is new. I will check the oil pump gear to make sure it turns freely.
I was thinking maybe the tensioner spring was weak and not snapping the pulley all the way up.
Can I tension the belt without removing the bottom cover and the crank shaft pulley?
When the engine was idling, it was initially smooth and everything in the timing box was quiet.
Thanks!!!!!
Karen
Last edited by KarensCamry; 08-26-2011 at 05:42 PM.
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