95 camry 1mzfe engine noise (tap tick click knock)...confused and need help - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
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#1 Old 09-02-2011, 11:48 PM
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95 camry 1mzfe engine noise (tap tick click knock)...confused and need help

I am trying to figure out where my issue is with this noise from my 1mzfe with 215k miles. It has had plenty of power and only some oil leaks...not bad though.

I had a check engine light for a while (rear o2 sensor, I think). I ignored it . Recheck after the issue did not show anything new....

Driving home (55mph) the car felt like it died for a half a second (bearing froze??)....I slowed down and started listening. It sounded like a valve tick, so I limped home for the last 10 miles.

Some details:
-The noise changes a bit as the rpms change. Low rpm (pre-start) has no noise. Once started it taps. If I rev it up, the tap gets louder, or cuts out or changes like something is moving around causing the noise to stop or get louder (EDIT: The noise also sounds like a slapping...like a fast paced type...like a coin slapping against a metal piece when revved just right). Honestly, I thought the shims in the valve area where jumping out of their seats based on the noise....but that all looks fine!
-The sound is definitely in side the engine. I cannot pinpoint it because it is coming from all sides. I listened from the top and it sounds like the rear valve cover area. from the passenger side it sounds like the front of the engine, possibly on the lower end. From underneath the car it sounds more like rod knock. On the driver side, it sounds like it could be anywhere.
-Power seams to be fine, so the car is not in limp mode from what I can tell.
-No smoke.
-No leaks other then what was already there (power steering and a little oil).
Suspected that a valve stem was bent, but the noise changes with RPM, so I discounted this suspicion.
-Sludge is at a minimum. A lot of build up on the underside of the valve covers and primary oil pan. Some sludge on the secondary oil pan but the bottom of the engine and the top of the heads were more of a copper color then a black and sludgy color....so I don't think sludge is the cause here.
-The car did overheat due to a bad water pump 20k miles previous, but after changing the pump all seems to be fine...no oil leaks, no anti-freeze leaks, no loss of power....don't think it did any real damage. (this is why I suspected valves or shims originally)

Back to the issue:
Got it home and listened but could not pinpoint the noise. I got some seafoam and marvel mystery oil and added those...no help (I did not do the high rev part of the seafoam though....didn't want to blow anything or make it worse).

So I tore apart the top end and adjusted the valve shims. Most were in spec and a few were out of spec, so I swapped some shims around to get them all within spec. Still had a ticking sound.

This happened about a year ago, so I can't remember everything that I have checked, but I think I already checked the timing belt and belt idler bearings......need to do this again.

After listening to it again a few months ago, I started to think it was something lower like a main or connecting rod bearing.... It had a tick/tap sound like a valve, but there was also a knock with it as well.... So I dropped the oil pan tonight (btw, chiltons manual does not say to remove the lower AC compressor mounting bolts! That took me a while to figure out why the oil pan would not move!) There is no obvious signs of damage in the lower end.... The oil did have a few metal bits in it (silver and a little copper colored stuff), but nothing on the top or bottom appeared to be missing anything or any damage to parts around them. I have not looked at the oil pump yet, but that is about the last thing that I can check.

So....from what I can tell, it is not the valves shims or camshafts. The lower end looks good. Crank/bearings/rods look fine. Cylinders look good from the bottom.

Still to check:
timing cover area/idler pullys. Water pump (replace ~20k miles ago). Oil pump.
Something that is not *in* the engine.....alt, ac, ps pump, trans. I doubt that it is any of these as the sound is *in* the engine, but I cannot pinpoint the sound.

I am getting confused as I cannot locate any damage so far and I don't want to start pulling the heads ($$ for head gaskets) and randomly troubleshooting.

I suspect the oil pump or water pump base on other things I read on the web...but I really don't want to tear all that down if I don't have to, so I turned to this forum for some insight and direction.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to include as much detail as I can remember. Hope someone has run across this before and can point me in the right direction. I don't have a ton of money to throw at a 215k mile car, but I should be able to get another 100k miles out of it....

Last edited by dkamper; 09-03-2011 at 12:17 AM.
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#2 Old 09-04-2011, 06:46 PM
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Update:

I remove the timing covers and crank pulley to get at the oil pump (still working on getting that out).

The idler pulleys seem a bit loose, but not terrible....while they really do need to be replaced (which I will do this time around) I don't think they are causing the sounds I am hearing. The timing belt tensioner is tight (rock hard) and seems to be holding the timing just fine.

Water pump seems to be tight, but I'm still questioning the shaft play....will play with that a bit more to see what's up, but don't think it is an issue.

Timing was dead on from the belt replacement I did when I replaced the water pump....no issues there.

Starting to think I need to pull the oil pump and water pump and inspect for debris that may be contacting the moving parts....but I would think anything that are in those areas would clog and freeze those parts instead of slapping around causing the noise. Will work on the oil pump first.


Hope to have the oil pump out this evening and know more.....wish someone on the forum had an idea of what's going on....
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#3 Old 09-06-2011, 11:48 PM
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Hi,

I am too having Toyota Camry 1999 Model and also having the sound from the pulley side while moving at slow speeds. When I was changing oil, I asked the Mechanic and he told its from the pulleys which he mentioned is shaking slightly, he sprayed some de-greaser and it stopped for a while and it came back again. I cleaned the outer engine with engine cleaner liquid and rinsed with water, the sound reduced to some extent and it is lighter than before. Some times when driving slowly, the sound is confusing as to whether it is coming from recently changed brakes or pulleys

Last edited by venramesh; 09-06-2011 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Grammer
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#4 Old 09-07-2011, 12:19 AM
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What brand of water pump did you install?

These types of noises can be very difficult to pin down, but going by your detailed description, I don't think it is a rod or main bearing. Rod bearing noise often occurs when you rev the engine to say 2000rpm, and the sound is loud and consistent until you let the engine rev down. Main bearings make a very distinct "clanging" noise, worse under load. Sorry I can't be of more help, you've done a lot of work to find the source of the noise, best of luck getting it solved.

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#5 Old 09-11-2011, 03:24 PM
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Diagnosed

So....after being really stupid and not thinking about the issue properly, I finally figured it out. The front most (#1 cylinder) connecting rod bearing is bad. I grabbed each rod and tried to see if there was any free play and found the #1 was just plain loose!

So, I need to take it off and see if there is any damage to the crank (I really hope not).

Questions:

Can I just replace the one bearing and leave the others alone? or should I just replace them all?

What about the mains? should those be replaced?

Can the crank be removed without pulling the tranny off? (I don't thinks so, but figured I would ask... I have halloween setup to start doing and need my garage back, so if I have to pull the engine, I am just going to bag this for now and wait until Halloween is done.)

If there appears to be no crank damage am I just risking it to replace the rod bearing without taking the crank in to be checked?

What really should be done to repair a bad rod bearing? Do I need to flush the engine, check the crank, check the mains, replace wrist pin bearings, etc...dunno, just throwing out examples of what I can think of but hope I don't have to do....



Thanks for the help, btw!
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#6 Old 09-11-2011, 04:50 PM
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you need to pull the engine / trans to remove the crankshaft. the flywheel is attached on the rear of the engine > to the transmission.

You need to replace the bearings as a set. You cannot just change one and call it good.

You should get the crank checked out for warpage, and damage. More than likely if its not TOO bad you will just need to get the crank polished. Any deep scratches in it though, your more than likely going to have to regrind it.

If I were you, I would take the whole block to the machine shop and have them check everything out. No sense in just having a crank checked out if something on the block is not straight. Once you are ready to install the new bearings and thrust shims, your going to want to also get some plastigage and run them on every bearing on the bottom end and make sure you dont have too much or too little gap. Your machinist will purchase the correct bearings depending on if he regrinds it or not.

With all the machine work and parts required, you may want to look into getting a new block or new engine so you dont have to worry about making sure everything is installed properly
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#7 Old 09-11-2011, 04:59 PM
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man...you are not telling me anything that I want to hear!

I am pulling the rod cap off today so I can see if the crank has damage...if it does, I'm done for now and will get back to this in November. If not, I will have to weigh my options. Will know more in a couple of hours.
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#8 Old 09-11-2011, 05:02 PM
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well any way you look at it, its a totally repairable engine.

So how did this happen anyways?

was the engine low on oil?
did the engine overheat?
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#9 Old 09-11-2011, 05:18 PM
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Magic....I guess....or poor maintenance.

It over heated a few years back due to a slow leak in the radiator line or water pump (or bad water pump...don't remember). I was in traffic and only moved 1/4 mile in 20 minutes, so I could not just pull over....I just revved the engine to keep the water flowing enough to cool the engine (I kept an eye on the temp gauge and kept it away from red line).

I was also very neglectful in changing the oil, so that could have been an issue.

The engine has a bit of sludge inside it (a common problem for these 1mzfe aparently), so I suppose that a clogged oil passage could be in play here too.... The sludge was not terrible, but it was very noticeable. Seems like the cooler areas of the engine had it built up and the hotter areas had none to very minor buildup.

I was not driving it hard at the time the bearing seized, so it must have been a combination of the above.

The car has 215k miles on it, but I trust toyota engines to last well past that, if properly maintained.............. I guess I just found out that proper maintenance would have avoided something like this.
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#10 Old 09-11-2011, 05:39 PM
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yeah, if properly maintained it would have lasted well past that. I own 4 camrys.. one of them just hit 260,000 miles and its still running strong.

Well, if you need any more assistance in your whole engine experience feel free to pop back on here and ask away
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#11 Old 09-11-2011, 07:37 PM
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OK,

I'm fearing the worst!

Looks like damage to the crank surface on the #1 rod bearing area. It does not feel mangled, but certainly looks like it in the photo. I popped off #2 for comparison. The bolts on #1 were easy to break off, but #2 actually took some force.

The bearing totally wrapped into itself. There was a 1.5" section that was exposed between the crank and the rod cap.

Not sure if the rod part is OK or not. Again, it feels smooth, but looks torn up in the pic.

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/...nk-cropped.jpg
http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/...ng-cropped.jpg
http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/...ap-cropped.jpg

Let me know what I can get away with or if this is going to require some more surgery....
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#12 Old 09-12-2011, 01:06 AM
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The surface metal used on the bearing inserts is a low melting temperature alloy known as Babbitt metal.

It could be that the overheating event a few years ago caused hot oil to go into the #1 cylinder connecting rod throw of the crankshaft ... which partially melted that bearing ... and eventually caused the #1 bearing failure. ... Maybe by the time the hot oil had reached the #2 bearings and those of other cylinders, it had cooled enough so that it did not cause additional melting of the other bearings.

Optimistically, you could take two or three different grit numbers of emery cloth, cut this to the appropriate width, and manually smooth out the crank rod surface. After you have progressed to the finest emery cloth grit, clean up thoroughly with some solvent, and try a new bearing insert on the crank throw that failed ...Check the bearing to crank gap with plasti-gage. ...

Before you use the emery cloth, plug up the crank throw oil holes with some lint free cloth in order to keep out the loose emery cloth grit. Try not to contaminate the oil passages with the emery grit.

Replace the oil pump with a new or rebuilt unit. The problem to watch out for is too much oil flowing out of the bearing to rod crank surface gap ... and thereby starving the other bearings that are further along in the lubrication chain.

The other possibility is that the hot oil that was caused by the overheating event has caused damage to the main crank bearing that is closest to the oil pump. However, if the crank and bearing assembly has lasted this long since the overheating incident, maybe things aren't to the critical point. The fact that you mentioned sludge build up does not help the situation. Sludge is usually associated with engine wear, and would add to the argument for taking the whole engine to the shop for a rebuild. You might do a compression check to see if the cylinder pressure results are reasonably even, or within the suggested specification.

... It might be a good idea to get a second opinion on this scheme... you probably don't want to do any further damage.

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54k miles, drop in K&N A/F, ... timing belt, water pump, NSS

Last edited by dc_98_cam; 09-12-2011 at 10:47 AM.
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#13 Old 09-12-2011, 12:32 PM
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I guess you are looking for a short answer on whether to just replace the connecting rod bearing insert.

If you can remove the crank main bearing cap that is next to the damaged connecting rod, you can determine if that main bearing insert is damaged, or to what extent it is damaged.

If the main bearing insert is useable ... not catastrophic ... Then the connecting rod bearing insert polish/replacement scenario has a reasonable chance of working. Try to keep it clean ... no grit in the oil apertures ... and use a break-in grease like Lubriplate on the new connecting rod insert.

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#14 Old 09-26-2011, 07:19 PM
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I appreciate all of the input. I have not replied yet because I have not been working on it much to a point that I can report anything back. I figured I would post a status though, so it does not seem like I abandoned this post.

I am "polishing" the journal for the #1 piston rod. I have worked through #320 #400 #600 and going to step up to #800 then #1500. I cut the sand paper into strips roughly the width of the rod cap and wrapped/taped it around the journal with wd40 as a lube. Then I used a shoelace and wrapped that around a few times to get even pressure and proceeded to "saw" back and forth to get the sand paper to spin around the journal. cleaned it with a acetone soaked paper towel, then hit it again with sandpaper and wd40. I also plugged the oil hole with a foamy ear plug to keep crap out of it. It took a long time to get it looking good, but I still have some light damage on the journal, but I did not want to remove too much and change the size of the journal.

I ordered a micrometer set yesterday and it is due to arrive tomorrow...then I can spec it out and see where I'm at. I will have to remove the remainder of the rod caps so I can mic those too before I can order a replacement set of bearings. I used a dial caliper with .001 accuracy before I started working on it, and it said that it was at 2.078 (I believe it should be at 2.086x), but I'm not going to trust the readings on that....if it is correct, I think the journal is way undersized for stock bearings. The mic will tell me better though.

I will update more once I am ready to order the bearings....I think I might have questions about what to order (autoparts stores say they have std and .02 over...but the FSM lists 4 different sizes depending on the rod size....my rods are stamped with a '2'.


Thanks for all the help!

Last edited by dkamper; 09-26-2011 at 07:21 PM.
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#15 Old 10-07-2011, 06:43 PM
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OK, Finally got underneath with a micrometer....I can't get to #5 or #6 yet, but here are the specs for #1-4:

1: rod marked with 2, bearing unreadable, measured the pin between 2.0763 and 2.0832
2: rod marked with 2, bearing 2, measured the pin at 2.0863
3: rod marked with 3, bearing 3, measured the pin at 2.0859
4: rod marked with 2, bearing 2, measured the pin at 2.0860
5: rod marked with 2, bearing??, measured the pin at ??
6: rod marked with ??, bearing??, measured the pin at ??

The crank pin measurements I believe to be under sized and out of spec. Does that mean it should be turned before I proceed? Looks like #2 is the only one within spec at this point.... Anyway to get bearings that would work without getting it turned?
Not sure if the bearing mark matters since I should stick with the rod mark. or is the bearing mark suppose to match the rod mark?
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