2000 Camry making strange sound and not starting when key turned

[HaveCamry,WillTravel]

A few months ago the community here was quite helpful when I had a starter-related problem (the starter had to be replaced), so now I'm hoping to get some ideas regarding a more bizarre issue, involving my car sometimes making a sound and not turning on when I turn the key, but always then working fine when I turn it a second time. I took the car to a mechanic but the sound didn't happen while I was there, and no one there could diagnose based on my description. I figure that the collective wisdom here is probably much greater than that at an independent mechanic's.

The problem in a nutshell: I turn the key, there is a bizarre scraping sound or whirring sound from just beyond the windshield/dashboard, and the car doesn't go on. I turn the key again and it starts right up. When I took the car to the mechanic it turned each time they tried to get the sound to occur, which was when I first noticed that this sound ONLY happens when the engine is cool. (The mechanic was 15 min. away, so the engine was quite warm.) The mechanic thought it might be related to the starter -- which was replaced in July, but could have been defective -- but the sound is nothing like the clicking I was hearing when my starter was near death. Instead, I get the sense that this problem involves something activated after the starter kicks in. The sounds, and there are different types of sounds, are those of parts of the engine wanting to work, but not working. (I'm not a car expert, but this is my best guess.) But after I turn the key a second time the car works perfectly. And I've had this problem for more than a month now, which makes it even stranger. It occurs to me that this might be something wrong with the electrical system, but no warning lights are going on.

I would welcome any thoughts on this. Or, should I spend the $100 or so to have the Toyota people run a diagnosis of the electrical system?

Thanks!

[gr91]

i think maybe you should try an engine relay or something, honestly as long as it starts fine it probably isnt anything! try looking for the starter solenoid or something like that maybe thats what you're thining about.

[Mike Gerber]

Are you trying to describe a rasping sound, like gears that aren't meshing properly? If so, it could be that starter that was installed in July is defective. When you turn the key, the starter has a gear (called a Bendix drive in the old days) that comes comes out of the starter and makes contact with the gear teeth on the flywheel. The starter then spins over the flywheel and engine until the engines catches and runs on it's own. When you release the ignition key, this gear retracts back in to the starter. It could be that the bolts that hold the starter in have come loose and the starter is no longer meshing properly with the teeth on the flywheel. It could also be caused by defective (possibly loose) parts in the starter itself.

If this problem happens every time you try to start the engine when it is cold, I would make arrangements to drop the car off at the mechanic's overnight and leave it there. This way they can try to start it when it is morning cold. Hearing the noise should help them diagnose the problem.

Mike

[csaxon]

^^What Mike said sounds right!

[HaveCamry,WillTravel]

Mike,
What you're describing certainly does sound plausible, and "rasping" does describe one sort of sound I'm hearing. Another, which I didn't mentioning, is a sort of whirring or spinning sound that rises in pitch for the second or so that I'm hearing it, and your mention of the starter spinning and the flywheel makes me think of that sound.

The mechanics I brought the car to did suggest leaving it there sometime, but that's inconvenient, and would cost a bit of money in taxi fare. So I guess before I do that I should know:
* If it's a defective starter or one that's a bit loose can they just eyeball that and know what to fix? (The mechanics did think it might be related to the starter, but didn't really examine it. Presumably, loose bolts should be easy to find. Heck, shouldn't *I* be able to tell if bolts are loose?)
* I had the new starter put in before moving to a different state, but if it's defective I should try to get the first mechanic to replace it. I'll be back there in December, so I'm wondering if this kind of problem can get worse, or perhaps even do damage.

Thanks to all of you for your feedback.
- Gil

[Mike Gerber]

You can try to put a wrench on the 2 long hex head bolts on the back end the starter and see if they are a bit loose. From memory they are 14MM hex heads, but I'm not absolutely certain of that.

As far as damage, yes it can cause damage. If it is what I'm guessing (and that's only a guess without actually hearing the noise first hand) you could be damaging the teeth on the flywheel. That would be expensive to replace, so I wouldn't wait on this.

Mkike

[HaveCamry,WillTravel]

I know that when replacing a starter one has to be careful to disconnect the battery -- would that also be the case if just sticking a wrench in there and trying to turn the two bolts?

[Mike Gerber]

You shouldn't have to disconnect the battery if you only touch the hex heads of those 2 bolts.

Mike

[HaveCamry,WillTravel]

I did check the bolts and they were tight so I had to take the car in, and it turns out that it was indeed the starter. Apparently it was the gear that wasn't working properly, so I had a new starter put in. (From Bosch, which I'm told is a good company; I've heard of them, at least.)

So this raises a new problem -- how to get money back from the independent mechanic back in Michigan who installed a rebuilt starter that went bad within three months. His receipt says that warranty work can only be done at the shop, which is about 600 miles away, so that wasn't an option. The mechanic here thought that it was simply a defective starter that was installed, and not that the other mechanic made a mistake installing it (other than going with a cheaper type that my new mechanic hadn't heard of). So would I be entitled to try to get back all $310 or so, or just the amount of the defective starter ($185)? Making matters more complicated, the new mechanic doesn't want me to send back the old starter, since he gets about $40 for selling it back to someone who then makes a "new" starter out of it. I'd welcome any thoughts. (My own instincts are to ask for the full cost of the part back but not send the starter itself, since the Michigan mechanic would have made his $40 off my original starter's core. Plus, of course, I should see if there even *is* a warranty. I don't have much leverage, but I did pay with a credit card, and could try to get back some money that way. I wouldn't consider such a thing if the starter hadn't gone bad less than three months after I got it.)

[JohnGD]

Get a written diagnosis about the bad rebuilt and any id number on the starter. That way you'll have a bill from the previous shop and a diagnosis of the bad rebuilt starter installed by that shop when you talk to the shop or to the credit card company.

That said, the terms of the warranty are clear in writing - warranty work is only honored at that shop 600 miles away. Fair enough. Not to Monday morning quarterback, but in hindsight it would be easier to go to Autozone, buy a starter with lifetime warranty and install it with their loaner tools. Autozone will install bulbs, batteries and wiper blades bought there for free, so maybe with a little tip one of the clerks will turn a few bolts to install the starter for you. And any Autozone will take back the starter and give you a replacement when it goes bad. (That's why I install Duralast batteries and Costco tires! )

After you got the diagnosis give the previous shop a call and negotiate in good will to see what you can get back and maybe chat with the credit card company about the dispute.

I know Bosch makes both new or rebuilt starters. If it's a rebuilt then either the old starter ("core") needs to be returned or the core deposit forfeited. Did you pay for core charge? If so that money belongs to you, not the new shop. If it's a new Bosch then the old starter belongs to you. If the new shop takes the old starter then no sense negotiating right? Except that you're starting anew on a Bosch starter.

That's a reason why groups like TN are here. There are plenty of talents willing to help so you can save time and money by doing many of the common maintenance/repairs yourself. And yes exercise all necessary safety precautions and read the DIY section:
Camry FAQ ------> READ FIRST -----> Comprehensive List of Gen 3/4 INFO and DIY

[capnblinski]

Folks -- I'm having a similar problem when I start my 2000 Camry four-cylinder. a rasping/scraping sound -- and the starter isn't as 'smooth' feeling when engaging to start the engine. I had the 'click no start' problem back in January and replaced the contacts and the plunger, and since then the car has started perfectly -- until now. I noticed the rasping/scraping sound when starting it one morning. Now I only hear it when starting the engine warm. The engine does start every time on first try though. My first thought was -- could the starter mounting bolts have loosened? Well, we'll see.

So I'll read through any pertinent information here on TN, and any help would be appreciated.

[Mike Gerber]

"could the starter mounting bolts have loosened?"

That would be my first guess.

Mike

[capnblinski]

Thanks Mike. I checked the two bolts today and the appear to be tight. What I'm gonna do is uninstall, look it over, and re-install to see if that helps.

The one thing I was thinking was, a few days before this problem started, I had left the key in the on (second) position for a half an hour inadvertently...

[Mike Gerber]

"The one thing I was thinking was, a few days before this problem started, I had left the key in the on (second) position for a half an hour inadvertently... "

That shouldn't cause a problem like this.

Mike

[capnblinski]

Pulled the starter over the weekend and found nothing wrong that I could see -- nothing loose and the contacts are of course barely worn seeing as they were replaced 5000 miles ago. But I still here that scraping noise when the engine is started warm. As the starter is really made up of two sections, I'm wondering if the problem is coming from the other section where the armature and brushes sit in? I pulled the cover off where the brushes sit and everything looked OK -- the brushes seemed to have plenty of 'meat' on them and nothing looked burned or corroded. So as far as repairing starters goes, it looks as though the next step from here would be to replace the whole thing.

Any suggestions where to go from here -- and if getting a replacement is the way to go -- any ideas on what brand or type to buy?

A new starter from the dealer would be to expensive, even though I would prefer the original type -- unless I find a used one at a salvage yard.