92 Camry, another weird problem..

[ToyJoeta]

Hello again good folks of the forum. I ran into another problem with my Camry.
After trouble free running for a while now, the new problem has me scratching my head..

I have read other posts regarding a similar problem but cannot find a resolve.

Last week my car died at a red light. I was just idling and the engine stopped.
Turned the key and nothing. The engine turned over, but felt like no spark.

Called a tow truck, got home and 10mins later tried again and it started!!??

I changed out the engine 'main' relay just to see if that may be the issue as I have a bunch of spare relays on hand.

A few days passed with no problems, then while at a store, I ran in, came back out, and the car did the same thing..
A strong turn over but no start.

I waited a minute and tried again, it started lol.

It has happened 2 more times since and have narrowed down the conditions to make this problem occur.

It seems when the engine comes up to temp, when turned off, it will not
restart. Tonight I went to the store, and left it running to be safe. Sure
enough when I got home and shut it off, I waited a min, tried to start
and nothing again. It turns over but no start.

I quickly grabbed a spare spark plug, popped it into the boot and had my
wife turn the key. Sure enough there was no spark.

So the problem only seems to happen when the car is warm. I also noticed
recently that the cooling fans will not come on, and if left idling, the car will
overheat.

Is it possible that the sensor that controls the cooling fan be tied into this
problem? Come to think of it, the no start problem began to happen long
after the engine fan not coming on, but figured id mention it just in case.

Any ideas of what is causing this?

Its a 92 Camry with A/C 2.2l 5SFE 4 banger.

Are there any sensors on this model that stop the power to the
ignition under certain circumstance?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have.. The last problem
I posted here was quickly resolved, so many thanks for the help


Joe.

[BMR]

My first suspect would be the ignition coil. They have a tendency to fail intermittently like that when they start going bad.

Could also be crank or cam position sensors? Far more rare to fail, tho.

[ToyJoeta]

Im going to test the power to the coil.. Its been raining for the past few days and
I dont have a garage. It was just tonight that I figured out how to make the problem
'pop up', so I will test the basics tomorrow.

It seems when the engine cools down, the problem goes away. The performance of the
car does not seem to be affected at all which made me figure it wouldnt be an aging
part like the coil..

Any idea if there is a power cut to the ignition if it overheats? The temp is normal when
this happens, but the fact that the control for the cooling fans or related has failed
has got me thinking.

I will test the power to the coil and report back.. Something tells me that there wont be
any power getting to the coil when this happens. Again thats just a guess..

If the coil was failing, would the car not lose its 'pep'? It has lots of power still, and the
problem only seems to occur when the car is shut off and try to restart without allowing
time to cool right down.

[Mike Gerber]

^ I will second BMR's suggestion of the coil. They have a tendency to fail when they get hot, just as you described. They also have a tendency to develope hairline cracks in the plastic, which contribute to failure. This usually happens when they rack up lot's of miles/years on them. You can test the coil with a digital volt/ohmeter and the specs from any manual. You can also remove it from the distributor and inspect it for cracks. If it tests bad or you see hairline cracks, you can get an aftermarket coil at most auto parts store for around $50. No need to replace the entire distributor, as many shops would do.

The overheating has nothing to do with the no spark problem, but this is still a serious problem. Today's engines with aluminum cylinder heads (and sometimes aluminum blocks) do not take kindly to overheating. First turn the A/C on to see if the fans do work. If they do, there is a sensor in the bottom of the radiator that turns the fan(s) on and off when preset temperatures are reached. I would also check that with the DVM and the manual for being in spec.

Mike

[ToyJoeta]

Thanks for the input Mike, I will check out the coil first.. I went out late last night for a short
drive and when I got back I shut off the car and tried to restart, and it started.. I was
going to try and test the coil, but couldnt get the problem to happen.

I think I have a spare coil which is stock Toyota, and will try to get the problem to reoccur
again and quickly swap out the coil.

The fan does do something strange I noticed and failed to mention. There is a small
connector located on the topside of the rad, on the driver side, which when disconnected
the fans turn on right away, but wont shut off unless its plugged back in.

I also tried pulling the relay which are labeled as 'FAN', and when reconnected, I
notice the fan blade moves just slightly accompanied by a 'squeeling' sound that
seems to be coming from a lower area of the engine bay. Im assuming this would
be the bottom of the rad where the sensor is located?

The car has not overheated to an extreme point, luckily I had noticed when I was stuck
in some slow moving traffic and quickly turned on the heat in the cab.
The temp was just above the half way mark, and was brought down before anything
got critical.

Most of my driving is at night and free of traffic and the temp rarely goes over the
half point, so I think I have been fortunate on that point.

I will look for the sensor as well and try to get that replaced ASAP after I deal with
the spark problem.

One thing I like about Toyota's is how they seem to give you a good heads-up before
completely failing. All the cars I have ever owned have been Toyota.. I think once
I get this all sorted out, I will be selling this car and looking for another diesel LandCruiser.

BJ-42 or better yet a nice Wagon

Thanks again for all the input, you guys are a very helpful bunch here

I will update after some testing and see where I get with this..

Joe.

[ToyJoeta]

Thought I would add an update.. The coil appears to be part of the distributor
cap assembly (please correct me if im wrong) and the coil I had as a spare will
not work with this car.

Also the problem appears to have stopped for the time being. I have taken the car out
a few times, and its restarting after shutting down with no problem.. lol figures.

In the meantime I will order a new coil and dist. cap, and change it out. I have not
changed any parts since getting this car other than the fuel pump,
but on the other hand, have not put many miles on it either..

I am hoping this will solve the issue, and will report back in hopes that this thread may
aid with somebody else experiencing a similar problem.

I also located the temp sensor on the bottom of the rad. Im going to also order a
replacement and get that swapped out.

Thanks again for all the help guys, much appreciated

[ToyJoeta]

Quick question... A friend of mine suggested to check for both spark and the pulse
to the fuel injectors when this problem occurred.. It seems that when the car wont start
there is no pulse to the injectors.

So now its narrowed down a bit more, and my question is, is this most likely the sensor
in the rotor that is acting up? I dont want to be replacing parts that are operating ok.

The fact that there is no spark AND no pulse to the injectors is telling him that there
is an issue with that sensor.

Would this be a good assumption, or could it be something else?

I priced an aftermarket coil and was quoted 114$ and 64$ for the dist cap. I can only
imagine what the cost will be for the assembly all together with the rotor / gear.

Im thinking a trip to the wreckers tomorrow may be in order..

Any thoughts?

[Mike Gerber]

Do you have a DVM and a service manual to check the coil and the sensor that turns the fan on, as I mentioned in my previous post? I saw one in my local Wal-Mart for $12. (Not sure if you have Wal-Mart or some chain like it in Canada.) Harbor Freight Tools (if you have them) is even cheaper. It's better to test these items than to spend money on parts that may or may not be needed. Also remember to remove the coil and inspect it visually for hairline cracks. This test is free.

As to the question on whether on not the computer would sense a no spark condition and cut off the fuel injectors, I'm not certain.

The prices you were quoted for the coil seem very high. Are you sure you said coil and not some other sensor?

Mike

[ToyJoeta]

I hadn't had the chance to test the coil as its under the distributor and being the only
car I have wanted to look into all possible scenarios before anything. This way
I could still travel to get parts.. I may have made matters worse, then be stuck.

I will be testing the above mentioned in the morning as a friend is going to drive
me to the scrap yard to see if I can get the whole assembly. I have had good luck with
parts from the wreckers so far.

The price of the coil and cap were quoted from UAP NAPA here in Toronto, I was surprised
myself to hear that price. But on the other hand kind of used to high prices here.

The logic behind the the sensor on the rotor being the issue appears to be sound
given that both the injector pulse is missing as well as no spark. The guy
who tested the injector line knows his toyota's pretty well and owns a
mechanic shop and has always steered me in the right direction... With that in mind im hopeful
that hes right.

I drove across the city today just to run the problem past him to get his thoughts
on it, and sure enough the car would not start when I went to leave. He had
a set of lights that clip onto the injector harness and he tested it on the spot
for me.

He said that the only thing he could think of other than the sensor on the
rotor assembly would be the ECU
and the odds would say that the ECU would not be the issue, at least I hope not... $$$...

A buddy of mine is coming down in the morning, so I will take it all apart
before we head off to the wreckers and inspect all the parts first. I also
want to take the original parts just to make sure I get the right ones.

Im not too concerned about getting used parts at this point, I think its
best to get it running and get rid of it, and start looking for a truck.

I may only spend 50-60$ for all the parts, so even if I get something that
is not needed I wont be at a huge loss.

If I change the whole assembly including the coil, chances are I should be good.
From all the feedback ive got on the issue, I think Ive got the
bases covered at this point.

I was lucky enough to have it act up when at the shop, as I would have never thought
of testing the injector pulse, so I think today put me one step ahead in
figuring this out.

I have a DMM and the Hanes manual for this car, so will test both the old and new parts to see whats what.

Im also going to grab the temp sensor while I am there, and swap that out.


Hopefully at this time tomorrow I will be posting here with good news and what the root of the issue was in the first place.


Fingers crossed

[ToyJoeta]

So the trip to the scrapyard was a bust.. Standard Auto Wreckers in Toronto
has changed their yard to a much smaller area. I only found 3 cars that had
the 5-SFE and on all the parts already pulled.

The same night I checked ebay and found a local seller which carried the
entire assembly for 99$!!?? NAPA wanted 114$ just for the coil. Another
place I checked wanted 338 plus tax for the same thing at ebay for 99$..

I went to TigerJapaneese Auto, and the guy at the counter tried to charge
199.$ plus tax. Yet on ebay it was 99. plus shipping.
So they are a bit shifty in my books as there seems to be an attempt on
the locals for more $$.

Long story short, got the part for 110. plus tax and thats the coil, cap,
and the mechanical assembly.

For anybody looking for parts from these guys, take you time and get the
better price. Check ebay first and see what they sell for on there before
contacting them. Had I found them locally, I would have paid the normal
price of $203. plus tax. Be smart and dig a little..

WEBSITE> http://www.tigerjapanese.com/index.p...tpage&Itemid=1

EBAY> http://www.ebay.com/sch/tigerjapanese/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686



Finally took out the original to find a HUGE crack across the top of the
coil. Thanks BMR and Mike, you hit this one on the head.

I guess I got used to the feel of the lacking performance, as now the car
really moves. I noticed the difference on fisrt start and immediately could
feel the change in throttle response.

Here are a couple of pics of the coil. Im still not sure if the 'no pulse' to
the injectors was a second fault in the assembly or was tied to the dead coil.

Either way I am glad I replaced all of it.

Thanks again guys, hope this thread helps another down the road with
the same issues.

[ToyJoeta]

Just another quick post.. When I spoke to the guy at NAPA, he quoted me on
the price of the cap and coil separately. Yet looking at the top of the coil
it appears that the 'do not remove' section has to come off to replace the coil?

Am I missing something here, or are you asking for trouble if just replacing the coil?

[BMR]

Whoa!... you weren't kiddin' when you said the crack was big. You could throw a dead cat thru that one! Usually you find a little hairline that's difficult to see. Glad to hear you got 'er fixed.