Boiling Coolant in holding tank/ Head Gasket

[Retzius]

Hello everyone,

First, My car has about 210K miles on it and its a 1997 camry, 4 cyl.

Each time I go to work (90miles round trip) and come back I park my car in the garage and I immediately begin to hear the coolant boiling inside the holding tank. It starts to smell like burnt coolant.

I replaced the radiator in 2007 also changed the thermostat in 2010. The car never overheats and I am constantly driving over mountains to work.

I thought is was air in the system so I bled the coolant system by opening up the radiator cap but that did not help.

Finally I took it to get inspected today and they did a pressure test. They said it was leaking and wanted to do an engine block test to check if the head gaskets were blown. They ran the tests and found the Head Gaskets were blown and the radiator was leaking from inside.

They quoted 1600 to replace both. I can replace the radiator since I have done it before but don't know what to do about the head gaskets? Please help, I've read replacing the head gaskets if not done right, can fail again and I dont want to be paying for this. Also, I never trust mechanics so if I can do anything else before accepting this problem please let me know.

[Stillrunning]

When turning the engine off the engine heats up the coolant higher than running temp before it begins to cool down. It may just be you need a new rad cap and or your anti-freeze mix is no strong enough. It's hard to imagine head gasket at this point as you say no overheat and no loss of coolant, and I'm assuming, no drive-ability issues. Have you checked the condition/appearance of your oil? I don't understand the shop saying "the radiator was leaking from inside", well of course it is if it's leaking, unless it's leaking into the trans cooling section, but you would notice loss of coolant. How does the coolant look - usual green or yellow color?

[Retzius]

Thanks for your help Stillrunning,

I just bought an oem radiator cap and oem thermostat. I am going to replace it as soon as the car cools down. The car was using prestone antifreeze and the mixture was good because I checked it with that little tester they sell with the little balls.

What confuses me is the fact that the car never shows its overheating on the temp. gauge. They quoted me about 2000 bucks to fix this if I want the head gasket replaced along with the radiator.

The oil looked fine the last time I changed it. How should it look if its abnormal?

They also said the radiator has a holding tank on the top and bottom that is leaking. I don't know whats inside a radiator?

The coolant looks green inside. Thanks for your help Stillrunning.

[Stillrunning]

Originally Posted by Retzius

They also said the radiator has a holding tank on the top and bottom that is leaking.

There are "caps" welded/bonded to the rad cooling fin section top and bottom and the bottom section is where the ATF fluid flows for cooling. The top one is where the rad cap is, but if they are leaking (broken bond/weld) then you'd see it and you'd notice loss of coolant.

So you see no loss of fluid in the overflow reservoir? It wouldn't hurt for a second opinion.

[Retzius]

I have not seen the resevoir fluid go empty. It may have gotten lower but never empty. It currently has fluid right now, its full with the car shut off.

They ran a compression test as well, pressure test, and chemical test. Compression test was ok. The pressure tests showed the leaks. Small leak at back of pipe was noted but they said it wasnt a big deal, just needed to be tightened down with clamps and the two leaks on top and bottom of radiator. I have no problem changing the radiator as I replaced that one it has right now.

The chemical test they use is what indicated to them my Head gaskets were bad. They stick a tube with fluid where the radiator cap is at and supposedly the vapors will change the color. I dont know, I am not a mechanic but want to just make sure its not a faulty cap or thermostat before I go and spend that kind of money. I never trust mechanics, too many bad experiences.

[Stillrunning]

The test sounds like a test for exhaust gas in the coolant. Exhaust gas would cause the engine to overheat but I don't know how exhaust gas can get into the cooling chambers of the head unless there's a HG break from the compression chamber to a cooling galley, but that kind of a break would put exhaust gas into the coolant on firing but draw coolant into the cylinder on intake as well leak coolant into the cylinder overnight after shutdown. It would also show up in a compression test as reduce compression. If you are constantly adding coolant to the overflow tank then it's leaking somewhere.

As I said, second opinion. No reason to replace the stat unless it's overheating. I'd for sure try the new rad cap.

[Retzius]

Ok, I dont want to replace the thermo I am going to drive it with the new cap and see if that is the problem.

I am just thinking maybe the thermostat is faulty and not showing its overheating in the temp gauge.

[71Corolla]

Assuming the combustion leak test was accurate, it means your headgasket is faulty. But even with a bad HG, an engine can still appear to run normally and not overheat, I've seen it before. You will have coolant loss though, although it can be quite slow. If a new cap does not fix the problem, then you can 100% confirm if your headgasket is bad by pulling the spark plugs and running compressed air into the cylinders. Bad HG will show air bubbles in the radiator.

[Retzius]

Ok, I am currently running the car...I will report back if replacing the radiator cap fixed the problem.

I believe I am losing coolant but very very slowly. I remember filling it up 6 months ago with a little water. I haven't seen it drop since and the gauge always indicates it running at its normal operating temp.

What is the cost of replacing a HG? They quoted me 1700 to remove the gasket and send it to a shop to install the HG and inspect it. If it requires milling or is warped that would be extra. What is reasonable?

[JohnGD]

The radiator pressure test should tell you if there is a leak in the system, and the use of a chemical leak tester should tell if the leak involved combustion gas. So if the shop did a chemical test using a test kit like below, then you'll need a new head gasket (as mentioned, if the test was correct):
http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/hea..._leak_test.htm

I think what the shop meant by sending the part out is that they'll send out the cylinder head for checks and machining if necessary. Basic machining and checks shouldn't run more than $200-250.

As far as $1700 for removal and replacement of the head gasket is too much. That amount of money you can almost get an engine rebuilt. I'd say $600-800 is more reasonable. And I'd recommend getting a second opinion by an AERA Engine Rebuilders Association shop. Go with one with racing winnings, because some are duds.

http://www.aera.org/member-services/...machine-shops/

[Retzius]

JohnGD,

Yes, that is the test they used, not exactly, but very similar. Their tube had a squeeze bulb at the top. He showed it to me and told me how it worked. Basically the vapors change the colors of the test and he said this is the only way they can tell if the HG are blown.

They also did the pressure test and noted a leak. They quoted me 317 for checking the heads. If it needed machining that would be extra.

Ok, well 1700 was ridiculous, I agree. 1300 is to get to the heads removed and installed after they have been checked. Another 300 is to send it to get checked.

Thanks for the link , I am going to shop around. I talked to my brother in law and his head gasket was blown on his BMW and paid 600 bucks to get it replaced. So they are clearly overcharging.

[JohnGD]

Stay away from that shop if I were you.

If there are no AERA shops nearby maybe talk to your brother-in-law's shop. They may be able to swap out the HG cheaper. Definitely use new head bolts *if* it's the HG and change out all rubber seals/gaskets they have access to (cam, crank, oil pump shaft seal, oil pump o-ring, water pump and related o-ring, etc).

With the cylinder head off, they should at least check the valve clearances, metal cracks, valve sealing and deck flatness, and depending on the shop grind the seat/valves at no or small additional cost. I'd make sure the valve stem seals are replaced - my personal fave is Fel-Pro premium seal set or other quality viton seals for both intake and exhaust. It's should be basic checks/machining, not an elaborate head rebuild.

You can check rockauto.com for prices so you have an idea when discussing parts prices.

[Retzius]

I found a shop that is aera qualified. However, they do not remove the head gasket, they only do the milling work. So he referred me to another shop near me. This shop said if a chemical test was done and came out positive, then the head gasket needed to be replaced.

This place quoted me 1400 for everything. Everything includes removal of head gasket, sending it to the aera qualified shop to get milled or checked, and installation of the HG. However, I asked him that my brother in law got his done for 600 bucks and he said they probably short changed him on some things. I dont know what to do. I want them to do a good job with the machine work because I dont want to replace this in the future. Maybe I should keep looking for other places or contact my brother in laws place and ask them to quote me and what work they will do to the HG.

[Retzius]

My other option is that I live in northen los angeles and if I drive down and contact other places in los angeles I think I will be sure to get a better deal. I dont want to pay 1400 bucks, too much.

[JohnGD]

Sure, talk to your brother in law's shop. Especially if he's happy with the work so far, not to mention on a BMW.

His shop probably has their own machine shop they like to use. Or they can even send the cylinder head to the AERA shop you checked for machining.

The machine shop should have a price list for the cylinder head work. Do they charge $30-50 for cleaning? $80-100 for flat decking and $80-100 for 3-angle grinds? For example.

Also price out putting a lower miles used engine too. Just for comparison. Maybe call up the dealer too and just ask for a quote.