Comment on 4cyl. perfomance.

[Silent Runner]

Yesterday I was lining up behind a Gen5, 4cyl Camry that had just driven a bit agressively to get in front of me for a busy highway access ramp. I was thinking, "great, now I have to wait for this slug to chug up to freeway speeds and merge before I can do so safely". I also thought that with another 60hp or so, I can also probably, safely overtake him for a safe merge. Well surprise, surprise! That 4cyl., automatic, actually took off pretty good to merge, at least it certainly wasn't a slug. It took a pretty long step on the "go" pedal to slide by. I think I have a bit more respect for the practical side of 4cyl. Camry's now. They get around pretty darn well, and are probably a lot better on gas!

[Yuko]

Those Gen 5 are fast with the variable valve timing, very strong of the line. The 2AZ-FE are just a better engine all around compare to the older 5S-FE. That why many of the newer cars only comes with a 4 cylinder engine.(Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata for example) But thank goodness the Camry is still offer with a V6.

[Silent Runner]

OK, Gen5 has vvt. I've wondered how those 4cyl. units seems to have so much punch off the line. I thought it was mostly due to having 5spd autos, and a really low 1st gear, but they really do OK for daily driving. If I wasn't a performance junkie, I think I could get by with one of those as my daily driver.

[bigbird]

I don't even think they had a 5 speed auto. The only cars that had a 5 speed auto around that time was the ES and GS I think. CharmcityES (cory) had both. His gen5 SE had a 4 speed auto but that 2az was pretty good, it would get up and move fairly well. His ES has a 5speed auto and I think it's a 04 or something.

[fenixus]

gen5 4cyl 2.4L is quite strong actually, rated at like 160HP at certain speeds/gears it pretty much matches up an old 190ish HP V6 ... of course V6 will still always win eventually once it catches up hehe

if I only was a fan of VVTi ... somehow I'm not convinced it's such a good way for longterm car life and considered that parts fail over time ... not to mention that gen5 & 6 are stuffed with electronics like crazy ... and all of components are usually Made in China ...

my mother has 2010 Corolla 1.8L (132HP) which pretty much only sniffs fuel, but man ... she had to visit dealer a couple times already for some electronic sensor trouble and CEL (under warranty) ... not a good sign... only 30k miles on car.

[Yuko]

Originally Posted by fenixus

if I only was a fan of VVTi ... somehow I'm not convinced it's such a good way for longterm car life and considered that parts fail over time ... not to mention that gen5 & 6 are stuffed with electronics like crazy ... and all of components are usually Made in China ...

Really? We have over 157K miles on over 02' Camry and it has the VVTi system. It never had any engine problem other than a water pump and oil pan gasket. Very trouble free compare to my 01'. We might have got lucky then.

[fenixus]

well, it's no secret that electronic components (talking about tiny pieces like single chips used on circuit boards) even in american or japanese parts and devices are from china. even worse for nowadays PC computers (desktops, laptops, servers, smartphones) as all components AND parts AND whole devices are from there hehe

anyways, it's good that your VVTi runs good, it's reassuring. maybe I will change my mind about that when shopping for a car in future, because so far i'm still not really convinced ...

however, it's either she got unlucky with electronics in her 2010 car or you were lucky with it in 2002 ... or it was made still good quality back in 2002 and is not anymore like that in 2010 ... I hope Toyota stops making that cheap cost cut crap and returns to making solid cars again ... like they used to.

Originally Posted by Yuko

Really? We have over 157K miles on over 02' Camry and it has the VVTi system. It never had any engine problem other than a water pump and oil pan gasket. Very trouble free compare to my 01'. We might have got lucky then.

[Silent Runner]

Hmm, I really aught to do more research on later Camry's. I noted that Lexus models at the time had 5spd auto's, and took it for granted.
I'm about 66% with fenixus, on the vvt engine thing. About a third of me says that technology that gives us the cam timing we want to make the moter go like all he.., is fantastic! The other two thirds of me says that to get that performance, I have to rev. the holy terror out of a small displacement engine, and that alone is going to wear it out sooner. (how many Honda GSR's do you see around lately). Another part says complicated electronics and components, that have been made most frequently in China, will likely not last the test of time. (Due to tons of evidence of quality control problems, from stuff coming from the big C)

Its funny, but the idea of boosting engines is only just starting to catch on again. The old school thought was that turbos make engines live short lives due to heavy pressures placed on rods, cranks, pistons and rings. Now that engines are reving to 6000+ to make their peak power, the mathematics of engine loads under boosted conditions are starting to make more sense than high RPM hp. (at least for long term warranty covered vehicles). My old Mazda 626 Turbo, held out for 386,000km., behind a turbocharger that boosted it to 12psi, from the stock 7.2psi., before I found it at our local PnP. I had alot of fun with that car, but rarely ever reved it over 5500 RPM.

I want the best of both worlds, but until vvti can give me torque numbers and a curve like EEngineer's TRD supercharged 3VZ, I'm look'in at boost as the future.

[Yuko]

Originally Posted by fenixus

however, it's either she got unlucky with electronics in her 2010 car or you were lucky with it in 2002 ... or it was made still good quality back in 2002 and is not anymore like that in 2010 ... I hope Toyota stops making that cheap cost cut crap and returns to making solid cars again ... like they used to.

That's worrying because we just got a 2012 Camry 2.5L. I'll see how it does in the long run. Hope that Toyota doesn't do what Sony did and make poor product while living of their reputation. But in general, engines today are more powerful, more efficient, and more reliable than before. I mean, cars before the 80's only had odometer the went up to 5 digits. Most 4 cylinder today produced more power than early V8s.

[Silent Runner]

Actually, cars produced way further back than the 80's had 6 digit odometers. (in miles) My first car, a 1968 Dodge Polara, inherited from the family, went over 200,000 mls. without an engine rebuild. (318ci, 5.3L, V-8) About that time I did a cylinder head rebuild job on it to clean up a bit of oil burning. Just a bit later, a cute little 71' Duster came along with a 340ci V-8, and I said bye-bye, and started getting into serious trouble with high performance cars.

[Silent Runner]

Originally Posted by Yuko

Most 4 cylinder today produced more power than early V8s.

It's actually quite hard to compare hp numbers from old V-8's to new 4cyl. cars. The old V-8's in the 70's, and even the 80's, emission control proto-type years produced dismal hp. numbers, but they were pretty robust and broad in terms of the power curves in hp. and torque. Todays 4cyl. can produce great peak hp. numbers, but they only make that kind of power when they are pushed out to high RPM. My 78' Mustang V-8, 4spd, manual transmission was rated at 139 hp@ 4200rpm. With a general re-tune of the timing and dual exhaust, it would go 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, (later,about 5.5 sec. and better ET with a locker diff.) and did mid 14's in the 1/4. It really was a bit of a freak, but it went like crazy and proved it many times at the track. It probably only made 185 hp or so, but it did it over a broad curve of hp. and torque, and only weighed about 2800lbs.

How a car hustles along is not as simple as looking at the hp numbers.

[Yuko]

Originally Posted by Silent Runner

It's actually quite hard to compare hp numbers from old V-8's to new 4cyl. cars.

You are right about that. I was just comparing HP number. There's just too many variables with vehicles to include; power-to-weight ratio, compression, force induction, gearing, etc. My friend used to own a late 80's F-150 with a straight six. It was slow but had to torque to pull almost anything. But in general, I still believe that engines today are better than before.

[fenixus]

I understand what you feel about VVTi and its power gains, that same 1/3rd of me is also all in for that ... i'm just still fighting to convince that other 2/3rds per reliability and lifespan of such engine (and surrounding electronic components) ...

For now I think I will try keeping my 1mz-fe car as long as I can and try supercharging it within 2-3 years ... if money allows of course

[touringcamry]

I think starting in 2005, the I4 changed over to a 5 speed auto from the 4 speed automatic.

[Doug S]

I just went through this, 4 vs 6 thing in my family, we have 3 Camrys. My wife was driving a 2000 Sienna and we went to get a new Camry this year. There was a night and day difference to her between the 4 and the 6 and she ended up with the 6. Next came my daughter who has been driving a 94 v6, this time I spent alot of time in the 4 and we all road around in it. To get it up to highway speeds one really had to drop the hammer as compared to the v6s. I think folks driving the 4s just get used to it or have not spent time in a v6. Both the new ones average 23/31 and the 94 that I now drive gets 21-22/29. As I recall the EPA difference between the 4 and 6 is 2-3mpg. If I was going to drop down from the V6 I'd go right down to the Prias, the new ones are surprisingly peppy and I know a guy getting 55mpg on his highway commute.

Doug