'00 5s-fe @ 82k cold start noise around 2k RPM then OK

[fenixus]

I still have slight trouble with some noisy part at every cold start of wife's 5s-fe. it's easier to notice when I drive this car sometimes now in Winter (back to freezing temps here).

Last time all pointed out to a flopping/loose timing belt and tensioner problem (was bad), plus a loose (and damaged) lower timing belt cover. all was fixed in Summer (not sure which one though hehe).

however slight problem still persists and happens only when engine is cold (<150F or so) then it pretty much disappears, easiest to come across that with below freezing ambient temps and dead cold car, then it goes away after car warms up.

Here is how it sounds from the cabin (turn the volume to max in both youtube and windows and/or use headphones for best effects), note the sound/noise like something was rattling (plastic?) quickly around 2,000rpm.

You Tube

You Tube

thanks for insights and ideas, maybe someone had that and knows where to look for the source, I can't pin point it under the hood. all I know is the passenger side and kinda either still something loose with timing cover (seems tight though) or some pulley (maybe alternator or AC?) causing this noise?

if it was coming from inside of engine, what could that be?

EDIT:
once I thought I pinpointed it by listening to valve cover over cylinder #1, but I think I was just hearing vibrations transferred from some other place ... unless it's the camshaft bearing over there making that noise?

one more important thing, if I make the alternator belt tighter above specs (e.g. 135lbs) the noise will move in RPM range to higher levels (e.g. ~2,300rpm), if I loosen it below OEM specs (e.g. 90-100lbs), the noise will appear at ~1,800rpm instead ... kinda weird ... and so misleading ... especially that it happens only when engine is cold.

I am actually starting to suspect things like:
a) some plastic outside of engine loose and vibrates when cold, then expands when it gets warmer and quiets down (wasn't able to find that)
b) worn out bearing e.g. in camshaft somewhere
c) shaky noisy pulley (both cam and AC pulleys aren't 100% straight when spinning) but why only when cold?
d) slight oil pump problem maybe? just guessing ...
e) recently even started thinking that maybe a spring clip in camshaft subgear is broken? but again why noisy only when cold?

post your ideas...

[fenixus]

This morning I took wife's car and noticed some loud plastic rattle coming from engine bay. It's pretty loud outside of car until engine warms up. Will try some video recording tomorrow morning. Good thing is it's rather external of engine. Very annoying to pin point...

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

[fenixus]

wasn't able to record a cold start video last weekend, because wifey was faster than me in getting to her car always hehe

tried today. it's not freezing outside, so the cold start noise wasn't that bad (IAC not kicking the revs as high as it would when it's colder outside). anyways, car was standing for 24hrs.

this time I recorded a video from outside with open hood. That noise I'm talking about is more like rattling (or even knock?) and happens only when car is cold (now running 0W-30 oil is making the noise stronger than with thicker oils) and while warming up, then it almost completely disappears. I tried catching which component is the source, but it's not obvious and then the metal parts are transferring vibrations, so it's real hard to do ... even listening with a 3/8'' hose to my er didn't really yield anything useful.

here's the video, again best if you can use headphones, because this noise is in the background (kinda like knocking even at 1,400rpm, more distinct and faster around 2k rpm when cold)

You Tube

You Tube

EDIT: in second half of video I am actually operating the throttle by hand a bit, not sure why the camera's mic did not pick that up at all ... must have been overwhelmed with other noise (hissing air? where from? alternator brushes? moving belt? exhaust leak, couldn't smell anything...)

here is another video of how the engine vacuum looks like, kinda fluctuating around 22inHg, not sure why. perhaps I have a leak from exhaust manifold gasket and that makes up for both the noise and slightly higher fuel trims at idle?

You Tube

You Tube

perhaps both things are related I don't know.
any comments welcome.

there was lots of work on this car in past, but i'm in rush now and can't write down what exactly was already tested and done.

really need help with this one. just trying to assess if I have a serious (growing?) internal problem with engine or it's something external which I keep missing. anyways OBD2 readings look OK except for 2 things: MAP readings kinda fluctuates a bit same as direct vacuum reading, and the Fuel Trims are a little (a few %) too high into positives to my taste, kinda pointing towards a vacuum/air/exhaust leak maybe. the rest looks perfect.

thanks again.

[JohnGD]

Maybe try removing both the alt/ac and ps belts and see. If the noise goes away then the bearing in one of those is bad. If nothing changes then it can't be the ps pump, alternator or ac hub bearing. But it's going to be a pain with these manual tensioners.

[fenixus]

I tried that already, even took the upper timing belt cover off some time ago. back then I also had a flopping t-belt, but same rattle at every cold start was there too (still is).

with no alternator belt:

You Tube

You Tube

and here is that old video with no belts and upper timing belt cover off:

You Tube

You Tube

is my "wobbly" camshaft pulley or its bearing a problem? what else could be the source of the rattle/knock? what's importantly why it's still there with no ac+ps belts while normally it changes range depending on ac belt tension? i'm totally stumped ...

in 2 above videos the extra noise (plastic rattle) could have been coming from a damaged lower timing belt cover, broken clips, missing gasket, an opening cut out above the water pump and such. now it's all fixed with new gaskets. however still the upper timing belt cover is missing gasket in some spots, could it be as simple as that? doubt it though ... current noise is kinda similar, but sounds deep, so maybe I have a bad bearing inside of engine? or maybe some leaky gasket intensifies engine sounds and makes it sound horrible like it does now in first and second video of this thread?

need help guys. I can post the whole maintenance done on car along with mileage and dates if that helps. can do more testing once the weather clears out too (1 more month probably). some valve shims may call for adjustment by now, 2 years ago some of them were close to limits of specs.

oh, and one last thing. this car has went through 3 water pumps so far. now running the third one (OEM) at only 82k miles. however the second one (aftermarket Bosch) went out because of a leaky gasket (weep hole was dripping) and me mixing wrong types of coolants while topping off soon before problems started ...

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Maybe try removing both the alt/ac and ps belts and see. If the noise goes away then the bearing in one of those is bad. If nothing changes then it can't be the ps pump, alternator or ac hub bearing. But it's going to be a pain with these manual tensioners.

[JohnGD]

Yeah, I vaguely remembered you did that back when one of your video with the engine sounding like a jet. I thought this time around some of the new videos sounded more rubbery/plasticy but with the new video in Msg #5 still more metallic and in the same range I originally thought was main bearing related.

As far as the vacuum, as another member suggested, maybe try a little downstream from the TB, maybe tee into the MAP hose and see if the fluctuation is still there?

Since you already measured the valve clearances IIRC maybe a leakdown test?

[fenixus]

hehe, yes it was it too. haven't linked that video, but it's the same story.

the bestthing is that it all started suddenly, shortly before the first (factory OEM) water pump started failing and at same time as the flex pipe got broken like 3-4 years ago. can't fix the rattling noise since then.

both videos in message #5 are the old ones before the tensioner and lower timing belt cover were replaced (and t-belt re-adjusted), so yeah they sound worse. they are from Sep-Oct 2010.

now is what 2 first video in this thread show. rubbery or plastics you say? I hear the same thing, but have no idea where it is coming from ...

I am ordering new OEM gaskets for the upper timing cover since I plan on removing it to fix that in a month or two. perhaps this is all it takes to fix

I may get a propane tank soon and test for vacuum leaks around the cylinder head, mostly exhaust manifold.

I will try re-reading the engine vacuum from the booster port on far end of intake manifold, perhaps port E on TB is not good for it. MAP's port vacuum is fluttering, I know that from OBD2 live readings, it moves, haven't double-checked directly, bt am 99% sure it flutters the same way as TB's port E does.

do you think all this strange rattle could be from valves now out of adjustment?

last time I checked they were like this:
04/03/2010 @ 71,900
-valve clearance measurements (cold):
CYL 1....................2.................3.......... .......4
IN.....0.23 0.25....0.28 0.25....0.25 0.28....0.28 0.28
EX....0.30 0.30....0.33 0.33....0.30 0.30....0.33 0.35

norm per toyota california emissions sticker for my car (on cold engine) intake 0.19-0.29mm and exhaust 0.28-0.38mm

I can re-adjust them in Spring/Summer and see what happens. have the tools, just would need new shims from dealer after measuring exactly what's what.

I have no means of doing the leak down test (requires the air compressor right?).

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Yeah, I vaguely remembered you did that back when one of your video with the engine sounding like a jet. I thought this time around some of the new videos sounded more rubbery/plasticy but with the new video in Msg #5 still more metallic and in the same range I originally thought was main bearing related.

As far as the vacuum, as another member suggested, maybe try a little downstream from the TB, maybe tee into the MAP hose and see if the fluctuation is still there?

Since you already measured the valve clearances IIRC maybe a leakdown test?

[JohnGD]

This one is still the same stumper as it was back then. The valve clearances are fine. They shouldn't cause the amount of noise like that I wouldn't think. But yeah the leakdown test requires the tester with a compressor. But if leaky valves are suspected this is one way to check.

And vacuum reading at TB EVAP port should be stable, but double check at the booster anyway.

Here was what I originally was thinking about an over-tightened drive belt causing the front main bearing (upper half) to wear :

Almost Spun a Main Bearing...

As far as the rubber mallet type of noise maybe the timing belt can use a retension. Also double check crank pulley bolt torque.

The 2.2L's tensioner is manually tightened down, but just throwing out all the possibilities here is one on a tired tensioner (on a 3.4L with a hydraulic tensioenr):

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/012007_04.html

"Usually a tired tensioner causes a telltale rattling sound in the front of the engine right after start-up. Also, revving the engine may diminish this rattling, but the noise never goes away completely. By the time this rattle appears, there's probably 1 /4 in. of movement in that tensioner plunger. "

and also

"If the crank bolt loosens up, it allows the harmonic balancer and crank sprocket to shake back and forth. First, this unwanted movement usually causes an rpm-sensitive noise and vibration in the front of the engine. "

[fenixus]

thanks for ideas.

I know this problem is a stumper so far no idea how to fix it.

leaky valve is one of options, kinda hard to believe, but surely I will take it for a leak down test if I run out of other options first.

my 2 wild guesses for now are only those (both causing plastic rattle):
a) I tightened upper timing cover (same as prev mechanic did when doing the timing job both times, same guy) with missing gasket here and there; perhaps the plastic of upper timing cover touches the engine directly somewhere and is subject to plastic vibrations? ordering new gaskets.
b) last time I was fixing the timing belt (and replacing tensioner which was failing) I noticed the semi-circular plastic plug was totally loose in the upper timing cover... perhaps that little piece of shit is rattling? I ordered a replacement plug, will swap it out, hopefully the new one sits tight in there.

from other things.
I can adjust valves better than they are, but I need to know where to aim first. which range is bad and which one leaves healthy life ahead? upper or lower limits? where are those valves adjusted at when new? I could do this adjustment over time to make sure t's all falling nicely in specs and there is plenty of healthy life ahead.

double-checking engine vacuum at booster port is a must, will do. just worried I will get the same results as before (fluttering) and what does it point to? a burned valve somewhere? leak down test sounds like a must after this one comes back positive...

I never had an overtightened alternator belt except for 1 month when I was testing the noise which was already there, normally quite the opposite actually - alt belt below specs for many years. It would be a bummer if a main bearing is the problem here
I guess all I could do to remedy it temporarily would be to switch back to thicker oils (e.g. syn blend like Castrol Edge or even back to dino oils) and forget about 0W class of oils for good on this car.

as per crank bolt torque and Harmonic Balancer, I removed those last time I was resetting the timing belt. HB looked fine (worn out but still solid) and I made sure to torque the crank bolt back to 80ft-lbs and noise didn't change at all before and after.

here's a pic of my Harmonic Balancer off car (nothing looks separated) - image edited for higher brightness and lower contrast:

Originally Posted by JohnGD

This one is still the same stumper as it was back then. The valve clearances are fine. They shouldn't cause the amount of noise like that I wouldn't think. But yeah the leakdown test requires the tester with a compressor. But if leaky valves are suspected this is one way to check.

And vacuum reading at TB EVAP port should be stable, but double check at the booster anyway.

Here was what I originally was thinking about an over-tightened drive belt causing the front main bearing (upper half) to wear :

Almost Spun a Main Bearing...

As far as the rubber mallet type of noise maybe the timing belt can use a retension. Also double check crank pulley bolt torque.

The 2.2L's tensioner is manually tightened down, but just throwing out all the possibilities here is one on a tired tensioner (on a 3.4L with a hydraulic tensioenr):

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/012007_04.html

"Usually a tired tensioner causes a telltale rattling sound in the front of the engine right after start-up. Also, revving the engine may diminish this rattling, but the noise never goes away completely. By the time this rattle appears, there's probably 1 /4 in. of movement in that tensioner plunger. "

and also

"If the crank bolt loosens up, it allows the harmonic balancer and crank sprocket to shake back and forth. First, this unwanted movement usually causes an rpm-sensitive noise and vibration in the front of the engine. "

[fenixus]

can engine cylinder compression test detect a possibly leaky valve?

I did compression test some time ago, may repeat soon:
04/03/2010 @ 71,900 miles
engine compression test results after cranking (with EFI fuse disabled and throttle jammed open) for about 7-8 revs (this is actually 4-5 secs) i got:
#1: 202-203psi
#2: 210-211psi
#3: 205psi
#4: 197-198psi

slight cold start noise was already present back then. wondering if I repeat valve clearance check and compression test how different results I get now. also curious if maybe I am getting fooled by simple plastic stuff in upper timing belt cover, need to fix those first soon. also wondering if I should remove the exhaust camshaft while opening the valve cover and test the sub-gear for turning resistance by hand (trying to rule out a broken spring inside it).

will get back to this thread in a few weeks with new results, including an engine vacuum test from booster port for comparison, and maybe I will also tee into MAP line as well for good measure.

[JohnGD]

If you're going to change the valve cover gasket might as well do another quick check of the valve clearances.

#2 compression may be slightly high over the averages because of possible carbon build up. So right #4 may not be low but #2 may be slightly high because of carbon. Maybe carbon is cause some sealing issue? Dunno. Is the #2 plug dirtier than others for example.

In general the compression variations should not be more than 20%, and that's a big variation, about 40 psi in your case. The worst case is about 6.5% in your case (#2 vs #4).


Yeah, I think there are two possible problems - noise and fluctuating vacuum.

So for the noise maybe check the timing belt tension again and if you have more time check inside valve covers for signs of wear. You might want to retension with the spark plugs removed like one of the members suggested (I like to keep them in there so dirt doesn't fall in).

And for the fluctuating vacuum I'd take the time to remove the cams. And with the cam removed, lean on and push on the valve buckets to get a ball park feel of valve spring tensions and any sticking. The compression numbers aren't too far off, so if there is a leak it's probably going to be small I would think.

Also you do have one of those universal pulley holder right? See if it can help hold and even turn the subgear to check for spring tension. You might want to get some extra nuts/bolts to match the subgear holes. Maybe even disassemble it since it's out of the engine just to make sure.

[fenixus]

^thanks

yeah, back then engine was still dirty after running cheap dino oils for a long time, however changed every 3k miles. I had a leaky oil filter once (oil pressure was never a problem though), which probably made things worse adding some extra wear on metal parts here and there I guess ... but it was long time ago, also long time before noise problem started.
A sticky EGR valve and old PCV valve in past also added some dirty carbon buildup I think... well now 3 years later after running good synthetic oils (along with sea-foam and auto-rx treatments in meantime) and decent filters only I hope to see some better compression numbers across all cylinders.
Perhaps something will stand out now after nearly 2 years from taking last tests.

One thing for sure, UOAs look good every time, so there is no abnormal wear on any metal parts inside the engine I would guess.

The valve cover gasket was replaced 2 years ago at a time of checking the valve clearances, so I will re-use it. last time I was re-sealing the distributor cap I re-used it because it looked very good. I just cleaned it with alcohol and re-applied the red RTV where needed.

Opening the valve cover again will have to wait for Summer though, but I should be able to test/check/fix all the rest much sooner than that.

Timing belt is an OEM one, having only 17k miles (2.5 years) on the clock. it was retensioned 4k miles (1.5yrs) ago with a new Koyo tensioner and new OEM spring.
I also removed the NGK Laser Platinum plugs (16k miles and 2.5yrs old) at that time and they looked very good (normal wear signs) and all same, no problems with that.
I would guess it's all good still as car runs great since then (even better after replacing the IAC valve a few months ago).

... it's just the cold start noise is worrying me. I wouldn't like to see this engine stalling and dying one day ...

[fenixus]

BTW, this is the last UOA I did on this engine oil, right before switching it to Mobil1 0W-30. I will repeat it also when time comes to change the oil again, however I am no longer following time wise oil change intervals for full synthetics anymore unless oil hits the age of 1 year.

Car was running on a home made mixture of leftover oils (with regular size Purolator PureOne filter):
2qts Valvoline SynPower 5w-30
1.2qts Mobil1 Full Synthetic 5w-30
0.5qt Lucas Synthetic Oil Stabilizer

There is one mistake in that report however, I reported the mileage wrong, it's supposed to read 1,417 miles (6 months) and not 2,744 miles.


let's say the problem is internal to engine and one of bearings is bad (spun?), would I see that in UOA numbers? I'd guess a bad bearing would throw metal (copper, lead, tin, etc.) levels very high, no?

[JohnGD]

Hmmm, the oil analysis looks fairly stable. A little more copper but less lead (bearing), and definitely less iron. Since you said the noise seems to be on the upper end, maybe it really has to do with the cam. Dunno.

If the front main starts to go then the remaining bearings will accelerate the wear. And that doesn't look the case in the UOA.

[fenixus]

hmmm. are all the bearings made out of lead, or only the main ones (for the crankshaft)?

anyways, will return here with a fresh set of results, maybe that (and fixing gaskets & plastics around upper TB cover) will shed more light on the noisy problem.

Originally Posted by JohnGD

Hmmm, the oil analysis looks fairly stable. A little more copper but less lead (bearing), and definitely less iron. Since you said the noise seems to be on the upper end, maybe it really has to do with the cam. Dunno.

If the front main starts to go then the remaining bearings will accelerate the wear. And that doesn't look the case in the UOA.