I've seen worse. It really depends how long you plan on keeping the car, and how much money you want to put into it. You could do nothing and drive it as is, or you could do the basics like new valve cover gaskets and PCV valve /grommet.

Either way if you plan keeping the car at all, put a new filter and a high miileage oil like Castrol, plus a can of Seafoam and drive like that for 400 miles. Then do another oil change with the same oil or switch over to 100% synthetic.

 

Yeah, I've seen worse. This one was a goner: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/154-1st-generation-1995-1999/357397-96-avalan-gunked-max.html

I've read two approaches that make sense to me. What 71corolla said; frequent oil changes, seafoam, and synthetic oils for a while. The other would be a complete teardown and scrubbing every nook and cranny, blowing out oil ports, etc., etc.. I'd try the first approach and cross my fingers.

 

I already have the pcv valve/grommet, valve cover gasket, valve stem seals, crank & cam seals, timing belt, water pump, thermostat, radiator hoses, plugs, so I am committed to that much. The crankshaft seal kit has the oil pick up seals, so might as well drop the oil pan and clean it up too. Besides filter and seafoam and oil changes should I try to remove what's there or leave it be?

 

Besides filter and seafoam and oil changes should I try to remove what's there or leave it be?

If you're patient and willing to do, it's best to get as much crud out as possible, will make the cleaning properties of the oil and any additives work better and faster. But you need to be very careful not to drop chunks of crud down into the engine, in theory it can clog vital oil galleries. To answer your question, not a lost cause, I've read about people with worse sludge problems and with some work the car ran much better and stopped pushing blue smoke.

 

Both the cars in my signature were like that thousands of miles ago, and are perfect today. I used Mobil 1 High Mileage and Kreen. Use a heavy duty sludge trapping filter like the Fram XG. Stick to 3k OCI's for 2, then stretch to 5k. The Mobil 1 High Mileage oil and Fram XG can be had at walmart. PM me if you want more info.

 

Mobil 1 High Mileage Product Data sheet:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENPVLMOMobil_1_High_Mileage_Oil.aspx

Kano Labs site for Kreen (needs to be purchased online, can't be sold retail, too toxic)
http://www.kanolabs.com/engCle.html
^^ You get a free gift. Get the Aerokroil, its PB Blaster on steroids!

Info on the Fram XG
http://www.fram.com/enca/products/oil_filters/fram_xtended_guard_oil_filter

 

Forgot to mention - Clean the valve cover while its off.

 

It is not a lost cause. It really isn't sludge galore. It will keep running with preventive maintenance!

Clean off as much as you can or want to.

GF5/SN oil will slowly clean that little mess. Full synthetic will help prevent it.

Change the oil/filter every 3k using a full synthetic current spec oil. You can rotate among the brands as each will have strengths/weaknesses on what it can clean, and by how much.

Check oil regularly and top off as needed. Do not ever run a teaspoon low on oil.

Kreen/Seafoam/LC20/Neutra/Marvel/Rislone/AutoRx/Lubegard/.... are all unneeded and unnecessary. Some could also cause problems by removing too much too quickly. Skip 'em until you're 3-4 oil change intervals away from now.

Fancy oil filters are not required. I'd avoid them since you NEED more frequent maintenance and the cost associated with a fancy filter will not be beneficial. Fancy filters could also be flow/pressure restrictive and you want as much oil flow as possible.

I would recommend a larger oil filter(sized L20195 FL400s PH3600...) if there is room.

If you haven't dropped the oil pan, you should(for inspection, pictures, and some cleaning too). If you can't, I'd recommend buying or borrowing a borescope for inspection after oil draining. You don't want the oil pump pickup screen clogging with crud loosened by <insert fancy cleaning chemical brand name here>.

Keep driving and don't worry about it.

 

Corrections. Kreen is not a fast flush, and should not be lumped together with other products. Its a carbon emulsifier. Protection against any chunks of sludge becoming dislodged during the cleanup process. To the contrary, cheap filters should not be used for cleanups, as they clog rapidly. As soon as 1k miles. A filter with extra dirt trapping capacity is necessary only during cleanup, then once its clean, use a P1, classic, etc.

I've done this a dozen times now, so I'm speaking from experience.

 

Kreen is a fast flush. Works great too. Don't kid yourself with the "fancy marketing terms", like emulsifier. Its a solvent, thins the oil, and dissolves krap....hows that for marketing.

Cheap filter should DEFINITELY be used. With sludge, its the size of the canister that determines how much is going to be caught. Don't fall for the filter manufacturers "gram count" of engineering dust. We don't have grams of scientific sifted to size dust in our engine. We have hard and soft sludge.

 

Just curious what kind of oil change intervals were used and the type of oil and filter?

Try to leave it as much as it is for now. But definitely change out the PCV/grommet and make sure the PCV hose and the fresh air hose aren't plugged. Also check to see if the valve cover area under the PCV is plugged. Like you said, drop the pan and at least make sure the oil pickup is clear and get an idea how much build up is down there. I wonder if the oil pump pressure relief valve should be checked while the lower pan is off??

Clean with an oversized filter as suggested, such as Motorcraft FL400s from Walmart and change oil/filter on short intervals by monitoring the condition of the oil frequently as it turns dirty. Walmart also has Mobil-1 5qt jugs for about $25, which is very close to syn-blends in price. When the engine cooks oil like this I'd move to synthetic or HM synthetic.

 

I've dropped the lower oil pan. Pickup was relatively clean.

How do I check the the oil pump pressure relief valve. I've seen some info on checking it while oil pump is off. is it difficult to deal with while the pump is still attached? I'd like to avoid removing oil pump if possible.

Here's some pics

 

Use the motorcraft filter and supertech synthetic 10w30. Change every 3000 and try to drive on the highway.

It'll clear up slowly. Seafoam would be the only thing I would recommend, and maybe after 3-4 synthetic oil changes.

That isnt bad at all. That wont kill a toyota. Aggressive cleaning methods on a minor issue like this will.

 

your car isnt nearly as bad as mine was/is, (which isnt nearly as bad as that avalon)

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...1992-1996-1997-2001/160021-i-have-sludge-buildup-pictures-what-do-56k-iffy.html


and this was nearly 100k miles ago and im still running strong and no smoke!

 

So the suggestion about diesel fuel is a pretty good one.

Another method I have never tried but many have used with success is mixing 50/50 with motor oil and transmission fluid. If your car takes 5L of oil.. Put in 2.5L of oil and 2.5L of tranny fluid.

Transmission fluid has some really good cleaning agents and detergents that should help free up a lot of that gunk and sludge. Again though, realize that no one really knows the potential ramifications of this. If your engine is worse than it looks you risk dislodging sludge like others have said and ruining internal components. Ultimately though we hope that these steps will help clean this out and free it up so that it comes out when you drain the oil out over and over

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One more thing. If you use these methods all you need to do is let your motor idle. No need to drive the car. The goal is to circulate the oil but not heat up the motor too much by driving. Remember that tranny fluid does not protect against heat and friction like engine oil foes when used in a motor.. Therefore just be easy on it.. Idle it for 10-15 minutes.. Drain the oil and repeat as necessary. If it was me I'd do three drain and fills cycles of the oil.. Using the transmission fluid method. After the third time, remove valve covers and assess for further cleaning

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I use transmission fluid to clean sludge. Just hope that it doesn't plug an oil port lol

when I do it, I was idling the engine until it got to normal temperature, then shut down, drained, refilled with oil, repeat, drained, repeat, drained, repeat, then ran straight oil, drained, repeat, drained, repeat, drained, repeat.

I flushed straight oil a few times to make sure i got all the ATF out

I did this with my engine i bought for my 95 camry. I bought it with a blown engine, went to the salvage yard and got one, but it had some sludge in it. Drove it about 80,000 miles since i put the engine in so far and havent had any issues.

The honest to goodness best way to clean a sludged engine is to completely break down the engine and have the block and head Dipped at a machine shop. You might as well buy a new engine by the time you do all that crap though

 

Don't use ATF. Its the oldest wive tale out there. It doesn't have a surplus of detergents catered to the byproducts of engine lubrication. Don't fall for the fallacy of the ATF farce mixed with motor oil.

I also don't see or care for the common 10w30 recommendation when a 5w30 will do just fine, and provide easier cold start oil pumping, and improved cold flow.

De-additizing oil is an engine wearing hobby that many need to avoid since they just don't understand what they are doing.

Hot idling is at low oil pressure and flow. If anyone plans on using ANY 5-10 minute full dose 'distillate' type kerosene/diesel flush, or any other oil thinner, use it only on a cold engine just prior to an oil change. I recommend that you hold that RPM at 1000-1200 or cycle between 1000-1500rpm to maintain PSI and flow. Cold engine 'start RPM' and 'cold engine oil viscosity', should suffice for any of your experimental oil thinning. The word "cold" is a simple method for idiot proofing, when using those pint-quart-50:50 dosages of oil thinner flush products and pseudo lubricants.

As JohnGD already mentioned, I'd also love to know the maintenance history, and brands/types of oils/filters used to cause to this.

And, don't get caught by the wifey with engine parts in the dishwasher. If she's not looking, just swipe the Easy-Off oven cleaner to assist stripping the valve covers.

 

And, don't get caught by the wifey with engine parts in the dishwasher. If she's not looking, just swipe the Easy-Off oven cleaner to assist stripping the valve covers.

I started cleaning to front valve cover with degreaser. Just about done. Haven't pulled the rear cover yet. Will post pics when I do.

Tell me more about washing parts in the dishwasher. What parts can I put in the dishwasher? Any chance of damage?

While we are on the topic of cleaning, the engine is a mess behind the timing belt covers. What's best way to clean that mess while I have it opened up?

 

Well I can tell you that after using ATF in my engine when I first put it in, my head got extremely clear, and so did the lower half of the engine. Since then I've used regular 5w30 and regular oil changes and it's still clear.. Just changed the valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket and it looks just as clear as after I did an ATF flush

Might not work for rx7 but it worked for me

 

ATF works great for removing all kinds of nastiness from just about anything. We had techs that used it to "preclean" the crap off their hands that Gojo wouldn't pull loose. Can't see any reason why it wouldn't do the same inside an engine.

 

You can pre-clean your dirty hands with ANY oil, motor oil included. Tell your mechanics to try vegetable oil next time. Its less toxic than ATF, and they won't wake up to skin cancer in 20 years.

I know some of you think that ATF did something miraculous in your engine. Next time you want to run ATF, take a UOA sample of that ending ATF/oil mixture to see how much wear you caused.

If you want to use thin oil, then grab a case of 0w20 and let it clean out your engine. Any motor oil would have the appropriate additive package needed in a combustion engine to deal with fuel and combustion byproducts. Transmissions don't have those worries. ATF, like gear oil, will have a higher sulfur additive package. Anyone want to guess what you get with that sulfur additive package with the moisture products of combustion? Might as well just fill your engine up with battery acid. I'm sure it'll clean it out really well.

When you add solvent products, like kreen, mmo, rislone, seafoam, whatever... you are simply adding back what is now missing and was refined out of your newer spec motor oil...the unstable solvents which will scrub your engine clean and hope that your motor oil keeps it in suspension/dispersed so that it doesn't resettle all over your engine.
Its one reason why the heavy doses of solvents are 5-10 minute flush products, and why many longer term applications are low dosed at 1 ounce per quart for the long haul... it breaks down and throws in the towel way too early for a long OCI... so we either re-dose regularly or change the oil/filter and start over before the snake oil expires, repeat for their profit... the snake oil manufacturers know this and love charging you $8 for $1 of kerosene... and play it safe with their labelled dosages.

Buy a gallon of diesel/kerosene for <$5. Split it into 4 single quart doses. Prior to an oil change, add a quart to your cold engine, run for 5 minutes, then change your oil and filter. Send me check for $5 each time you do it if you feel that you need to throw away money. Gasoline works great too, but I can't recommend it for a flush because most don't have enough common sense to use it, and I don't want to see you making your own jackass videos when the volatile fluid ignites.

Preventive fluid maintenance is cheaper than replacing an engine. Looking for a fast fix in a bottle is foolish. You can only put so much lipstick on a pig. If you know that you have sludge, you simply shorten your oil change interval, use a quality oil, and keep driving. Don't look for some quick fix that grinds up your engine internals because you think that it must look polished.

 

Yes and no... I do agree with you but to be honest, changing your oil more frequently will help keep the motor clean.. I think it is past that point. You need to get that caked on sludge off there to a point. Anyways I still think ATF method is good. And then yes, definitely shorten your OCI for a while to clean up the remaining part.. Doing oil changes even every 1000 miles to this motor for the next several months I don't think would do much in terms of the sludge.

When you currently drain the oil does it come out in clumps or still a stream of oil??

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If the engine is running, even covered in sludge, as seen here and other threads, it is NOT past any point. You can go crazy and try to scrub it clean, soak it in chemicals, mix up your own snake oils...... or you can simply adjust your oil change interval, oil type, and break your bad oiling habits.

Even the cheapest Pennzoil oil.....Pennzoil® motor oil actively cleans out up to 40% of engine sludge in the first oil change.
http://www.pennzoil.com/motor-oil/pennzoil-conventional/
http://www.pennzoil.com/motor-oil/pennzoil-high-mileage-vehicle/

Who's gonna argue with Mobil1?
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Mobil_1_Sludge_Protection.aspx

We've leaped forward tremendously with SN/GF5 oils. Yes, oils can clean sludge on their own.

This is why I recommend: physically clean what you can see, switch to synthetic, top off oil regularly, practice a sensible oil change interval, and keep driving. Spend your snake oil budget on beer.

The OP hasn't posted any updates so who knows what is going on.

 

Lots of good feedback. As they say there is more than one way to skin a cat. I appreciate all the comments and various methods for sludge removal. At this point I think I will take a conservative approach by cleaning some of the bigger chunks and then go with the synthetic and larger oil filter and reduce the OCI. I will drop the oil pan and clean it out too. I can always throttle up the aggressiveness, but I can't go the other way.

Regarding maintenance, I know of one time we went longer than we should have. Beyond that, I really don't know the brands and types of filers & oils. Never used synthetic. We used to have mech who was uptight about OCI on Toyotas. We moved and started using quick lube joints, who knows what we get and if they change the filters. I guess I will start doing it myself. We have had an oil leak valve covers, cam/crank seals for a while and that certainly didn't help matters. Most of my wife's driving in the past 5 years has been short hops, 2 miles to school, 1/2 mile to grocery, 2 miles to walmart. Anyway probably a factor of less than adequate maintenance combined with short hops. The good news it sounds like all is not lost.

Thanks again.

 

On the ones like yours - a hardened carbonized sludge, a few leaks, smoke, I use Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30. Its Mobil 1's full synthetic with an expanded add pack. Has conditioners/swellers for the seals, extra cleaners for the sludge. extra wear adds too. Best of both worlds. Should work out well for you. Walmarts got plenty of it.

 

You can put ANY part you want into the dishwashers that doesn't rust. Skip the heated dry to prevent unsupported parts warping. I've never had a vehicle or firearm part damaged in the dishwasher. Its no different than cleaning your stainless pots and pans, your aluminum cookie pans/sheets, your utensils...
Don't forget to understand where your dishwasher drain water goes. You might not want a pound of greasy sludge washing into your cesspool.

 

ahhhhhhh no !!

Seriously..engine components in the dishwasher? And you were worried about ATF running through the motor at a super diluted concentration. I'd say there's a likelier chance of damaging things in the process of cleaning in the dishwasher then running good ole ATF through the motor.

BTW..why not get a motor vac after using some cleaning detergents in the motor? that should help clean it up too.

 

So sounds like just keeping things as much as they are and not mess with it. Run one of the many suggested cleaners through at short intervals, and then evaluate the results.

There were a couple of recent reports of oil pump relief valve sticking in the bore and cause low/no oil pressure problems. So that may be one thing to look for. At some point the valve and bore should be cleaned spotless.

 

I will check that when I pull the oil pump. Thanks for the heads up.

 

You should be able to access the relief valve after dropping the lower oil pan, unless you decide to remove and check/clean the rotors in the pump.

There is also an upper oil pan, and if you go through all that to reseal might as well do the upper pan as well. The main problem will be the rusted/seized exhaust bolts.

Again, make sure the PCV system is breathing properly before you start the cleaning process. Looks like some crankcase vapor was coming out of the fresh air pipe with all that buildup.

 

As leaky as this is, shouldn't I replace the o-ring in the pump? I have the fel-pro crankshaft seal set and it looks like it has the oil pump o-ring in the kit.

Yeah, PCV is nasty. The fresh air intake on the front VC was pretty well clogged and was blowing a lot of oil into the throttle body. That's another mess I need to clean up. I have new pcv and grommet but have not assessed the condition of the hoses. Wondering if I will need to replace those while I am at it.