Battery ?'s 1995 camry V6 LE

[kenny1773]

I thought I knew about batteries and all until the other day

My 1995 camry V6 shot it's first battery in 1999, I replaced it with an Interstate brand from a local dealer and that one died in Dec 2002. I couldn't find the receipt/didn't want to deal with the warranty when that one died so I just went out and bought another in Dec 2002. Also in Dec 2002 I put new toyota battery terminals on, cleaned the cables up a bit and made sure everythign was in good shape.

The 2002 battery was bought from advance auto parts and it was the silver series. That battery just started to flake out on me about Aug 2004. What I mean by flake out is sometimes it would not turn the engine over. I would turn the key and see dash lights come on, but NOTHING from the engine (no clicking noise of the starter relay or anything). I could turn the key off and on about 5 o 6 times and eventually the car would start. I could jump it and it would start immediately.

During the non starting times, the defrost fan would work, headlights would come on, radio would play etc, etc (at times it seemed turning on more accessories would lead to faster engine starting, but that makes no sense to me) but it would not turn the engine unless it had more juice. Problem was way worse on 30 degree mornings than it was on 50-60 degree mornings. After the car had been run, it was always fine. This is a daily driver, driven at least 1 hour everyday and on the weekends more.

When I took the battery into advance to try and claim the silver series FULL replacement within 24 month warranty, I got a major run around from the manager and almost was made to leave with the dead battery. The manager INSISTED there was something wrong with my car and nothing wrong with the battery.

Here are some points

1, the battery needed water added every 3-4 weeks for the last 3 months
2. the battery was fine when the car was run, seemed to lose charge overnight no matter how long the car was driven (I could drive highway speeds for 2 hours non stop and the battery would still have issues the next day if it was cold)
3. I put the battery on a charger and the charger gave it some juice for about an hour at 10 amps, then clicked into trickle mode (usually indicates battery is full on this charger) I end with the same result the next day.

Here is what the manager at advance told me: (and I think is TOTAL BULLSHIT)

1. EVERY battery must be removed from the car and charged on a quality charger EVERY 6 MOTNHS or it will go bad. No matter how the car is driven (everyday or not)

2. even though the silver series battery has removeable plugs to fill with water, I SHOULD HAVE NEVER EVER put water in it.

3. My alternator has killed the battery due to a defect of some sorts

4. the reason my batter is dead every morning is because my car has some device on that is draining it down more than normal (my camry electrical is 100% factory)

5, the BS went on and on and on and ended with a 'well YOU just don't understand how batterys work and that is why you THINK this one is dead'

So I ask the toyotanation crew, please explain batteries to me. Is anything the manager said true?

After much fight and threats he gave me a new battery. The car has been fine for the past 2 days now. My headlights seem brighter too Today I fired it up in 35 degree weather, no problemo, it lept to life.

[Toysrme]

All that is bullshit. If a sealed, OR non-sealed battery is loosing fluid more than once every few months, you've got a problem. If it happens that often, it needs to go before you get stranded somewhere.

A lead-acid battery has no need to be cycled like any other type of rechargeable battery. In fact, a deep discharge, or cycling will ruin a lead-acid battery in no time flat! (excluding deep-cycle car batteries)

It's fine to add with distilled, deionized or demineralized water to a battery, as you SHOULD NOT add more acid to it. You also SHOULD NOT add salty water into the battery. The sulfuric acid will react with the sodium and procude a chlorine gas.
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That being said, if you have mild electrical problem, there could be enough current drain when the car isn't running to kill off the battery. A suprizingly common thing I've found is people wiring audio equipment up. It is amazing how many idiots wire something to be on all the time! (Even so, the car has a current drain while sitting. If something is wrong it can drain batteries)
The ALT isn't going to kill a battery. It's a shitty 80amp alt! It can't power a descent subwoofer amp by itself, let alone the rest of the car at the same time ROTFLMAO!
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Honestly, that's why more and more batteries are only coming with a 1-2 year warranty when they use to *ALL* be 5-7. They finally figured out that a lead-acid battery just will not work that amount of time. If it really pisses you off, spend some big $$$'s on an Optima and upgrade to a highlander ALT(130amp).

[amerikim]

Dealer is a shit bag. Tell him he does not understand how warranties work and he should invest in a little customer training.

I would write manufacturer and better business bureau. How much does an email cost?

[zoni]

i would say you have a bad alternator...

optima yellow top batterys are common to buy for camry drivers and many cars as well... i have one. its good shit. they will never go bad for real. true performance batteries. plus you can mount it sideways and shit too.

[karazy]

I'm with Zoni on this one. Get the alternator checked. There are only two ways to lose that much fluid that fast. Either a leak or over charging. Over charging would explain why you are going thru batteries so often. It seems like the regulator is shot.

[kenny1773]

Thanks for the feedback

Is there an easy way to test the alternator?

I do have a new battery in there now, I will keep an eye on the fluid level. I figured if this battery could go a couple months without needing fluid then everything was fine (and of course it still started the car).

I should also add about the water loss every few weeks, this only occured in two cells and not in all six.

[kenny1773]

A little more follow-up I found a quickie alternator test on a google search and here are the results.

This is using a $90 or so Fluke meter so I am fairly certain it is accurate

I turned my high beams on for a minute with the engine off, then turned them off
voltage on the battery (again engine off and after running lights) was 12.3v

I started the engine and ran it at about 1500 rpm, tested the voltage on the battery and it was 14.39v

I rev'ed the engine up to about 4000 rpms and the voltage stayed rock solid at 14.39v

The quickie test tells me those results mean my alternator is fine.

[green94camry]

If the case itself of tbe battery is dirty it can cause a drain, sounds like symptoms of bad connections. I doubt its an alternator problem, my 94 has 164,000+ miles on the oe alternator

[amerikim]

In looking at the post, it could be the alternator but I agree with it being the battery or the battery CONNECTIONs. I would go over that carefully.
My car was failing to start about once a week. Occasionaly, it would even lose radio station presets & clock misbehaved. I went down and got the battery tested and Jiffy Lube told me it was borderline and to replace as soon possible.
I had to hold off as I wanted to wait for payday instead of Visa'ing it.
I went home and lifted the hood and I yanked on those ugly connectors. The positive gave a bit. I was a little surprised. So I unbolted and resat it.

Four months later, no fail to start, clock is fine and radio is cool. I am thinking as it was bouncing around when I was driving, sometimes it would disconnect and I would loose charging.Whatever it was, we just had a couple of below freezing nights and the car cranks right up. Not saying you have the exact same problems but you aren't that far off.

[nim]

i have a friend who is a production line engineer with optima in denver. from everything i've heard, they are busting tail just to keep up with demand. beyond that, spiral wound or plates is a toss up. if you need a battery that can be mounted in any position and is subject to high heat, such as a homebuilt aircraft, than optima is for you. for joe daily commuter, anything will do. as to your (assumed) current drain, it could be your alternator. on an old 928 i used to have, if the alternator brushes start disintegrating thay can ground out and drain the battery. this was a common problem with other 928 owners but not me, i just ended up with a crappy bosch rebuild (and that alternator was a pita to r&r.) i'd slap a new alt on your car.

[Mike Gerber]

First of all, I'm glad you received a new battery. Now you have a benchmark starting point.

I too believe you still have an alternator problem. The internal regulator could be bad and overcharging the battery. That would explain why you keep losing battery fluid and going through batteries quite often. The 14.39 volts you read could be fine at first, but if the battery is fully charged it should eventually drop down to more like 13.5 volts. After the car has been driven for a while, I would stop and leave the car running with all accessories turned off and check the alternator output again with that DVM. A constant 14.39 volts seems excessive after the battery is fully charged. The regulator should drop the alternator's output a bit.

That being said, you may also have an excessive dark current draw. This is the drain on the battery when the car is off. The car must use some current to keep the memory for the main engine computer, the radio presets, etc., when the car is off. There is an easy test for dark current draw. With the engine off, disconnect one of the battery cables. Take the DVM and set the scale to milliamps. Now put the probes between the battery post and the battery cable terminal. Read the DVM. I'm not absolutely sure of the Camry's dark current spec, but most cars are under 20 milliamps. If you have higher than that, then you have an excessive dark current draw killing your battery. Do you have an aftermarket alarm on the car? They are famous for drawing too much dark current.

Good luck with the problem.

Mike

[kenny1773]

Mike

Thanks for the tips. I ran the car for 25 minutes today on the way to work (brought the DVM with me). My commute was about 10-15 minutes of 40-45mph driving and then the rest stop and go (not really bad, like stopping every 5 feet, but stopping every 40-50 feet and never really getting above 30mph).

I parked it and left it idle, tested the voltage at idle, 1500rpm and at 4000rpm and it was 13.62v at all 3, never flinched.

and yes I am glad I got the new battery to start testing with (assuming the new battery is good, and it is looking like it is).



I will test the dark current later tonight.

[Mike Gerber]

With the test you preformed, it seems the regulator inside the alternator is functionly properly. But, don't forget about the test for the dark current draw. About 5 years ago, I had a friend with a new late model Mustang who had a similar problem. The dealer checked his battery and alternator and said everything is working properly. I explained the dark current draw to him and at lunch we went out to his car with my trusty DVM in hand ready to do the test. I looked inside his car and noticed that his old style car/cell phone mounted to the center consul was lit up all the time. I said to him, "we don't even have to bother with the test, here's your dark current draw." He shut the phone, we then jumped his dead battery and he never had a problem again. Some times we overlook the simple things.

Mike

[kenny1773]

I do have an aftermarket alarm system made by persuit, it is as old as the car (I installed it the day after I bought the car). Oddly enough I never use it anymore, I have the valet switch turned on all the time, which makes it nothing more than a keyless entry system.

Other than that, anything that is hard wired is factory installed. Stereo, Sunroof, etc, etc

I have a cell phone charger that plugs into the cig lighter socket, I leave it in all the time. The cig lighter turns off with the ignition so I figure it's OK. It has a light on it as well that indicates when it draws current (or charges or something) when I turn the key off that light dies.

It could possibly be my alarm. The key fob remotes died this past year and cost me $35 each to replace once I found them for sale I guess it is ageing.

I will try to run the test with the DVM tonight, I have to figure out how to put this thing in miliamp mode

If it really is a dark current issue, wouldn't I see signs of it already? The new baattery has been in for 3 days now with minimal operation of the car.


Talking with a few folks here at the office, a couple of them have had aftermarket batteries that only lasted a year or so (both interstate brand). Since they are not really 'car people' they took it to their mechanic and the mechanic tested the system to find bad batteries. I just find that interesting.

I have a 6 year old motorcycle (1200cc) that is on the original battery and it is only driven 4000 miles a year. I have never once pulled it or charged it out of the bike.


Many thanks for the input!

[Mike Gerber]

kenny1773,

If you do find a heavy dark current draw, I would pull the fuse for the alarm system and then test it again. That is basically the procedure for determing where any excessive dark current draw is. Pull each fuse one by one and see if the dark current draw then drops down significantly. When it does, you know within what system(s) where your excessive dark current draw is. Then you must trouble shoot that sytem or system. It helps to have a second person helping you do this; it goes much faster that way. One pulls and then reinstalls the fuses one by one and the other just reads the meter. My vote is for the aftermarket alarm system. They are usually the most troubleprone areas in the car's elecrical system as they age. Let's hope you don't find any problems and that it just was the battery, but it is better to do this easy check if for nothing else but peace of mind. Good luck.

Mike