'92 Camry V6 Stalled--Won't START--Help!

[mnwolftrack]

Hello,

My wife's '92 Camry XLE with V6 died Friday very unexpectedly. It has 157k on it, but the engine (and rest of car) has been absolutely flawless and never leaked a drop of oil or had any issues until now.

Here's what happened: we were simply out running errands and when we pulled into a grocery store parking lot and the RPM's dropped down further than expected as we coasted, the engine began sputtering a bit and nearly died but didn't. My wife was driving and had to step on the gas to get to a parking spot and it seemed ok with gas, but as soon as we stopped to park, the engine RPM's dropped down to about 500 (from 800 normally) and seemed to just run rough like a car would that had the idle set too low. I foolishly hoped the problem would go away after the car cooled off a bit and we came back out of the store. I wasn't too worried about the problem at this point, as it wasn't "that bad" yet.

We came back out to leave the store, the engine started, but the engine idled pretty rough. I drove this time. When I put the car in gear and started to drive, it felt like it was driving on 5 cylinders instead of 6 and lacked power. When we got to a stop light, I thought I smelled firework smoke (it's nearly 4th of July and there was a fireworks sale booth right next to the lights). The car idled a bit rough but still ran. As I took off from the intersection, then the car started shuttering/shaking while cruising. Somehow since the engine wasn't running right, the car would vibrate/shudder unless I completely let off the gas and coasted. Now I'm getting worried. Then about after another mile or so (trying to just get home and look at it later), while cruising at 55mph the engine started missing, the RPMs slowed, the engine lost power despite flooring the gas pedal, and finally stalled. I tried starting it a few times and it turned over well, but start. I popped the hood, and we noticed a small amount of light smoke coming up from around the firewall's center, though I couldn't pinpoint the origin. It smelled like the fireworks smell I thought was fireworks earlier but obviously wasn't. After a few minutes of me checking with a flash light, the smoke stopped and I never found the origin. Could have just been an overly hot exhaust caused by whatever the problem was. It didn't smell like crispified wiring or burnt oil.

The car did not overheat. The oil level was perfect, there were no leaks. The coolant level is perfect, and no leaks (no coolant smell out the exhaust either), and I don't suspect a head gasket one bit.

It turns over very well (e.g. it's not a battery problem), but it won't start. Here's what I've checked:

1. Checked the fuel pump for operation by shorting two leads on the diagnostic plug per my Haynes manual. Pump operates this way. Did not hear pump run when I turned the key. According to a similar post, the pump won't operate until the engine fires and I can "fool" the pump by turning the key to on and manually opening the AFM flap (I will try this today). Then car has just under 3/4 tank of gas.
2. Checks for spark. The plugs were a bit wet with fuel (from running the pump and trying to start it several times unsuccessfully). Checked two of the front plugs and they get spark. I replaced the plugs and wires anyway at this point. The #2 wire broke when I pulled the wire out, and it's core was corroded away and I thought this had been the problem. I would have thought the car would still run on 5 cylinders if a plug wire went bad, but a mechanic friend I called said it could cause the engine to just stop running. Thus, I replaced the wires/plugs.
3. Replaced wires and plugs as mentioned above. Gap 0.043 No improvement. All 6 original plugs looked good.
4. Pulled distributor cap, no moisture. Sanded the rotor arm lightly. No reason for the distributor to suddenly get full of moisture on a sunny dry day when the car had been running fine for an hour before.
5. Pulled top 2 bolts off front of top timing belt cover, timing belt still present, but did not check alignment of it yet.
6. Checked resistance across injectors 2,4,6, and 1 (the only ones I could reach w/o pulling the intake). Resistance was within spec according to Hayne's.

And now I'm stumped. I'm going to check the fuel pump again by manually operating the AFM flap, then I'm going to check the timing belt alignment. Other than that, I haven't a clue. Someone in another thread mentioned that something in their distributor failed and caused the exact same problem, but I would think I'd have no spark in that case.

Help! I don't want to have to pay a mechanic to fix this. I was going to "relax" over the long holiday weekend, but I want this car fixed. I've owned Toyota pickups and 4Runners for years and know them inside and out (I've owned over 20 ranging from 1982 to 1994 models). But this fancy '92 camry is a lot more advanced than what my pickups/4Runners have been.

Thanks,

MNwolftrack

[Toysrme]

Looks like you went through everything.

They will still run, and drive on 5cly -- if not four. Yes, the fuel pump will not normally turn on unless the switch in the AFM is engauged by the flap. (That will happen with a low amount of flow, like the engine turning over to crank at 400rpm)

Check the ignition timing. If the ignition timing is still 10*btdc - the timing belt is still functioning - if it's off a bit, the timing belt may have slipped (or it was simply set incorrect to begin with).



Sounds dumb, but check the wires, and distributor cap. At some point, we've all been off a cap position and wondered why we couldn't start our cars. The haynes diagram showing where the cap should be is shitty. A lot of people have been confused by it. I was too the first time through.


The #1 spark plug wire should be the top most wire.

[mnwolftrack]

Hello,

Thanks for the quick response! I have already replaced the plugs and wires. In reference to the distributor cap, the #1 is at the top. I made sure to note how it was positioned before I took it off.

A couple timing questions--how can I check the timing if the engine won't even start? Short of pulling the timing belt cover, turning the crank to TDC, and checking the cam gears, is there a better way? Should the distributor be at #1 when the crank is at 0?

[mnwolftrack]

I forgot to mention in my original thread, there are no engine codes and the check engine light never came on during any of this (in case anyone asks).

[CTCAMRY]

i think this is a common symptom of a clogged catalytic converter.

[mnwolftrack]

Well, I just took the upper timing cover off and it seems all is well. With the crank notch at 0TDC, the rear cam mark is dead on with the mark. The front cam mark is aligned with the right/forward edge of the mark (the mark is a groove about 1/8" wide or about as wide as a gear tooth). If I were to say this cam gear were off and I moved the gear back one tooth, then the gear mark would be aligned with the left/rear edge of the notch. The belt looks great (not that it means much), but at this point I don't think the belt is off and I'm not going to install a new one just yet. If I put in a new belt, I might not align it right and then I'll have another problem on top the first one to deal with.

If it were the cat that were clogged, why would it happen all of a sudden within about 5 miles of driving?

If anything at all in the distributor were bad, would I be getting zero spark?

[Toysrme]

What does it sound like when you crank it?

[mnwolftrack]

It sounds normal when the starter is turning over, however I can feel a bit of roughness in the car that isn't normally there, as if a motor mount were bad (but that isn't going to keep the car from running). THe motor mounts look fine though. I'm out of ideas at this point. I haven't pulled the cat yet. There's absolutely no desire for the engine to fire. I might as well remove the spark plug wires, and the car will feel the same trying to start along with the extra roughness.

I just did a sniff test underneath in case it was the cat or some other exhaust component that overheated, but I couldn't find the smell. Nor could I find any evidence of something burning.

[mnwolftrack]

Actually, after tinkering some more it doesn't appear that the engine is shaking at all. It seems pretty normal. I tried starting it about 10-15 more times, and there was a noticable fuel smell coming out the exhaust along with a faint haze as the engine was trying to turn over. Once only, the engine barely ran for about 2 seconds after I let the key turn back to on (it felt like about 1 cylinder). I don't know if that's an improvement or not.

I don't have a fuel pressure tester, but I wonder if there's too much fuel pressure? Too bad my Hayne's manual doesn't even show which round thing is the fuel pressure regulator! It just shows a vacuum pump with a hose disappearing into the edge of the photo.

Would a bad fuel pressure regulator keep the engine from running? Someone else on a different board mentioned a bad ECU, but the check engine light never went on, it still only comes on for a short time when starting the engine as it normally should.

Thanks for the continued help,

mnwolftrack

[whocares04]

the sticky at the top of the forum has the repair manual and is MUCH more in-depth than Haynes so u might wanna download that...

have you tried givin it a little gas as u turn the key?

is it possible u ended up getting too much fuel in the engine from testing the pump?

also, have u tried reseting the ECU by pulling the fuse for 5-10secs and/or disconnecting the battery?

[Luckynumber5]

seems to me you are not getting spark, check your igniter, follow the center lead thats on your distributor, the igniter sits near the air intake box, speaking of which have you checked the air filter? long shot but ya never know

[dakota wolfe]

hmmmm...When was the last time the fuel filter was replaced? that 'sulfer' smell is really concerning me, if it indeed was coming from your car, let alone from under the hood, Check all your wiring and fuses for anything odd. example if a wire insulation looks 'bubbly' it in all likelyhood melted up internally. However if the smell seemed like it was coming from the back of your car, suspect the cat, although when cats go out they give off more of a rotten egg smell. You might be able to check the cat with the following method, it might or may not work as its a 'running engine kind of check', check your manual and find a nonimportant vacuum line, say to the cruise or something, and hook up a vacuum gauge watch it while someone else cranks the engine if you have vacuum (itll likely be quite low because youre just cranking it) and its steady, thatll pretty much rule out the cat as the culprit, but if it starts off 'high' then slowly drops the more its cranked then there might be a restriction in the exhaust ie cat or muffler. After this check remove the sparkplugs and crank the engine 'bout 5 sec. to clear some of the unburned fuel out of the cylinders, dry the plugs off while they are out. If you arent getting any response from the fuel pump shorting its check connector, then that could be a very good starting point, but the fact that there is a fuel smell and vapor out the tailpipe tells me that the pump and cat are trying to work. That leaves the distributor. Check for spark once again, it should be a nice consistent thick blueish spark with a slight white 'aura'. The sparks need to be equally powerfull on all cylinders as well as keeping a constant 'tempo'. If not then the dist/coil is going out.

[mnwolftrack]

Wow, thanks for all the help!


Whocares04,

I'd LOVE to download the manual, but unfortunately I'm stuck with 56k dialup at about 19.0k speeds out in the sticks. I may be able to download it at work on Tuesday though.

I did try giving it some gas when I turned the key, and no luck. I also found the fuel pressure regulator (no thanks to Haynes), and put a vacuum on it to decrease fuel pressure, and left it unplugged and no difference. It's quite possible I flooded the car while trying to start it so many times, and testing the pump manually by shorting the diagnostic plug. If it's flooded and won't start, it's hard for me to tell because it wouldn't start anyway. '

The plugs are wet with gas if I pull them. Despite getting spark....

Luckynumber5,

I've checked for spark about 4 times now (though I admit I'm no pro at it). First, I tested with an original plug and wire by pulling a plug and plugging it back into it's wire and resting it on top the engine (#4 cylinder). I replaced the wires, and one at a time I did 2, 4, and 6. I didn't do them all in a row side by side, rather it was throughout the day today and yesterday. I have not checked the coil or ignitor simply becuase I've been seeing spark at the plugs. As for the coil, I only checked the cap and rotor. I didn't go to the extent of pulling the whole unit. I'm seeing a white/blue spark.

Is there a better way to check for spark (perhaps take out all plugs/wires and line them up in a row to make sure they fire sequentially?).

Dakota Wolfe,

I'm not sure when the fuel filter was last replaced. For all I know at 157k it could be the original. Now that you mention sulfur, that's what firecrackers smell like isn't it.... That does sound cat related. I checked as much as I could visually and didn't find anything melted, burned or fried. There was no burnt electrical smell. I've had wires fry before on other vehicles, usually $250 beater parts vehicles, burning the wire insulation, plastic wire looms, electrical tape, etc... so I've had the pleasure of smelling lots of burnt things. But the camry only had the firecracker smell. We were on a slight downhill slope, and I figure whatever was causing the smoke wasn't too far under the car becuase it would have gone rearward instead of forward and downhill. I'm pretty confident there aren't any burnt wires. I didn't notice the smell from the back of the car, though when the car stalled I was focused on the engine compartment. My wife was standing in back. She knew the smell, and she was even the one that pointed out the smell and smoke under the hood (again, it wasn't much smoke). I did smell the tailpipe this morning (a kodak moment), and it just smelled like fuel. There is air/fuel vapor coming out the exhaust when the engine is trying to turn over. I had my wife try and start the car today while I sat back there.

Will a cat go that fast? I'm used to them slowly going, and having more of the smelly rotten egg order, rather than a more mild firecracker smell.

I guess that leaves me with the distributor/coil/ignitor since the timing belt is ok, fuel pump operates fine, plugs/wires are new. My Haynes manual might say how to check some things on these, any recommendations on better ways?

[CTCAMRY]

rotton egg smell seems like it would be the cat. not sure how long they last...

[mnwolftrack]

Hello,

Ok, since I have spark, fuel (though I don't know the fuel pressure), the only thing left in the triangle is airflow. I know for sure I had a bad plug wire to begin with on #2, but the car would have kept running on 5 cylinders. I started a new thread about this, but I'm wondering since the plug wire failure didn't just happen when I pulled the wire, could the spark at #2 been low/non existent and ended up fouling up and clogging the cat? Here's my other thread:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t86326.html

The other wires were fine. When I tried pulling the #2 plug wire out, the wire snapped inside the hard plastic sheeth that runs through the valve cover to the plug which is how I realized the wire was bad. I pulled the broken wire piece off the spark plug. I peeled back the wire jacket and insulation on the broken ends, and the thin black core wire was rotted away (there was a bluish green crust in there). So, I know that the core wire was good and didn't just somehow snap and went from good shape to bad in a hurry. The car never acted like it had a missing cylinder until the last few minutes of running before it stalled. So I'm thinking the wire was still firing somewhat until it's last few minutes of running, that or the Camry V6 just runs really well on 5 cylinders and I've been too stupid to notice. I have plenty of exprience on the pickup/4Runner V6 and 22RE 4 cylinders, and it's quite noticable when those are running minus one cylinder.

None of my other theorys of lack of spark, fuel, or timing belt off were correct. So, can a bad plug wire cause a plugged cat?