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Stall erratic low idle at stop, after longer drive, intermitant

3K views 25 replies 6 participants last post by  CamryFL 
#1 ·
1998 Camry LE 2.2 auto

Runs perfect, except after 20-50 minutes of driving, when coming to a stop.
The idle then drops and hunts and stalls rather quickly.
If I feather the gas pedal and re-start, it will re-start but I have to apply the gas pedal to keep it from stalling.
If I leave it off for a while it starts and runs fine.
I can let it idle from cold for an hour and this symptom will not appear.
Any ideas? coil packs?
The IAC, ECT and fuel filter have been replaced, very recently with after market. I previously had a high cold idle. That issue is now resolved.
 
#2 ·
Any codes stored? I've had a couple ignition coils (but on '95's, w/distributor) go out where they would flake once they got hot.
 
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#4 ·
have you removed the egr valve and cleaned it and the downtube?
while you're there, check out the egr modulator for correct vacuum flow, egr temp sensor for correct resistance at a specific temperature, and the egr vsv with a 9v battery to see if it opens and closes and allows and then stops vacuum flow through it, if your car has any/all of these.
tony
 
#5 ·
I did clean the EGR and tube when I did the other stated work (cleaned TB too). The EGR seemed to move nicely with vacuum hand pump.
Yeah, I should check the EGR system flow.
IDK if there is an EGR Temp sensor. I don't recall any electrical connection to the EGR. I better make sure.
The VSV is a pain to get to. If I go after it, I will relocate it, and use new vac lines, as I did with my other Toyota.
I'll dig into some of that tomorrow. Thanks.
 
#6 ·
yeah, from what i understand, on the 4 bangers ppl routinely reroute them as they seem to be hard to access. probably why they don't get checked too often but are a necessary part of the egr equation.
if that don't fix it, we can get short term and long term fuel trims when you experience the problem and see if maybe a fp regulator is leaking or a cop or disto coil is breaking down under heat or an injector seal is leaky, etc.
tony
 
#7 ·
I have the free torque app. I don't know if it can get the fuels trims..maybe the paid version? I'll look into that and buy it if it does. I also have a cheap corded reader, doubt that will have them but I've never really looked for it.
I'll run some checks, that I know on the EGR system and then try to force a breakdown and do some other tests, if/when it does break down again.
I could even swap the VSV from my Celica, to the Camry. if I suspect it may be the issue. It will get new hoses and an new location, as well.
I'll update. Thanks.
 
#8 ·
EGR system tested ok, without problem present.
I pulled the VSV. I thought the Celica was hard to get out, the Camry was even more difficult.
I relocated the VSV and replaced hoses. The VSV did seem to leak intermittently but maybe that was my set up. After bench testing a few times, it seemed solid. It still may have an issue when heated but now that it is not mounted to the 'hot' engine, it may work fine.
I did a similar drive that had triggered the last breakdown and all was well.
I may find a good used one for a back up but seems OK now. Time will tell.
I will update, if results change.

I did some research, on fuel trim. I really never knew what it was. It seems that could be a great tool to isolate some faults, if you know what to look for. I'll be looking at it, if problem reoccurs. Thanks.
 
#9 ·
yep, hopefully that vsv fixes it.
do learn about fuel trims, especially your car(s) numbers and especially when it's working good. then, when it's not, you'll be able to see where the problem is.
ensure your monitors all go ready, and have no dtc's pending or set, graph out your stft/ltft's and b1s1/b1s2 sensors to see how they act under normal conditions. pretty interesting stuff if you dig into it.
tony
 
#11 ·
No changes except for VSV relocate have been made yet. Problem still persists.
Disconnecting of the VSV hose, during failure did not clear failure.
The failure does seem to clear fairly quickly if car is left off for about 1 minute.
It does behave as if the egr is opened slightly when it fails. EGR moves freely and closes well with hand pump.

Here is some other data. This is NOT during the failure.
I'll try to get some data when failure is present but that is not very easy while driving and it seems my logs will not record on this device once I leave my home wifi. This android phone is not active. I may need to get an app for my windows phone, which is active.
......

This graph is at idle, in park with a quick tap(maybe to 3000rpm) and release on the accelerator pedal.
Note both STFT(green) and LTFT(Red) drop when RPM is raised quickly. Then return to previous values as it returns to idle.
This may signify a small vacuum leak, although none were detected. Engine vacuum is good, at 22.
More input is welcome.
Notes on O2 sensors
O2 1-1 (blue) : Rises slightly at increased RPM surge and then levels at return to idle.
O2 1-2 (purple): Drops more significantly at RPM surge and then levels at return to idle.

More Notes:
STFT seems to decrease with RPM and stays zero at idle.
LTFT seems to be at 5 to 15%. Obviously at 15% in this graph.
O2 Bank 1- 1 (upstream?) stays about .6449 . The wave form size is no larger than .06 lower or .01 higher than that value at RPMs 700-1500, in park.
O2 bank 1- 2 (downstream?) .345 to .7849, under same conditions as above. Changes are in 10ths of a millivolt in O2 1-2, as opposed to 100ths of a millivolt in O2 1-1.
These O2 voltage differences are not visible on this graph.
The frequency of oscillation seems very similar. I know upstream should be, at a significantly higher frequency. 70% faster, I believe.
Can anyone tell me what this may signify? Bad/lazy upstream O2? CAT failing?
Thank you for your input.
Kaz
 

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#14 ·
All the work I have done on this car and I didn't read the emissions sticker til today. Doh.
It's Cal emission. So, I do now see, that the upstream sensor, is a different sensor than Federal.
Thanks, for enlightening me. As I understand, I'll have to read that wideband, as "an equivalent ratio" on the app. It should show much more movement..I think. I thought wideband Toyota was 3.3volt? Maybe the wrong sensor is in there now? I have only had this car 5 months or so. The inverse movement of the 2 sensors at RPM surge on the graph, does seem to confirm a wideband up stream.
It does run and idle, quite well, other than the stalling at stops occasionally.
Not sure about how the downstream is supposed to react in that relationship with the wideband upstream. Any further info is appreciated.
I'll try to see what happens when it fails/stalls. I think I saw the trims all go very low, as that happens but not 100% sure yet, as I thought I had a log but I did not have a log. If so, I would think the engine is drowning in fuel, at that point and my opening, of the throttle adds more air ?

I'll get more info on that, as it comes. Thanks for any input.
 
#15 ·
It failed again earlier today. I quickly went out and tapped the EGR valve with the end of a breaker bar. Not sure but may have heard the valve shut. Started right up, after that but that could be coincidence.
So, I clean the EGR again. It was never clogged up but a little sooty. I tried to focus on cleaning the shaft well. I thought maybe it was hanging up occasionally. Some PB, TB cleaner and a small plastic paint bush, Using brush end and plastic handle.
I didn't drive to too long after the cleaning maybe 7 miles. After about 5 miles, I did a short stomp on the gas for maybe a 1/8 of a mile or less (from 40 to 65 MPH). That's not too easy to do near my home. There are a lot of stop lights and a lot of other drivers, sleeping at the wheel, most of the time, they do 40 in the 55mph zone.
It through a code P0171 after that and the scanner showed a P1335. the P1335 was in grey, I believe.

P0171 System Too Lean (Bank #1) P0172 System Too Rich
P1335 Crankshaft Position Sensor Circuit Fault (during engine running)

My STFT is very good and the LTFT is 5% to 15%. The LTFT did jump to over 25% when I punched it. It does not lag much at all, in reference to the STFT.
Can the Crankshaft Position Sensor cause or contribute to this lean condition?
I have heard of issues with the wiring harness of the CPS. Normally a no start condition in those cases.

There is no MAF on this vehicle and I have not found any vacuum leaks. Vacuum is at 21-22.
It did not breakdown during this run and the throttle is very responsive.
I may start throwing inexpensive parts at it.
Thanks for any enlightenment.
 
#16 ·
I am having the same issue since many months. The car will hunt and stall 1 - 2 times a week. Had cleaned and replaced IAC with a used one. I checked the resistance and stepper motor with 12 volt. Replaced ECT but no fix. I used torque pro for weeks but could not find any thing. Finally, replaced egr valve with oem part. I was able to make the car hunt and stall by using a vacuum pump to keep the egr valve slightly open. The vacuum had to be very precise to duplicate the problem.

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm whether the stalling is fixed because the water pump died the next day. Its been too cold to work on the car.
 
#17 ·
Yes, I did the same thing with the pump, on the EGR and it does seem to act the same exact way. My hunt is very short and stalls in about 2 seconds, most of the time. Maybe my cleaning has resolved it and the new codes are unrelated or may never reappear. I'll check the Crank sensor anyway..probably next week, because a big snow is coming in right now.
I ordered an aftermarket EGR valve with gasket for $17.50, just in case. At that price, it's worth having..I think. lol Sometimes old used OEM is much better than aftermarket but not always. New OEM is 10x that price.
 
#19 ·
I also have that spaghetti gasket leak. So I do plan to do the entire timing belt job.

Coming back to the original issue of stalling, What I feel is that sometimes the EGR valve does not fully close. After doing up and down for so many years, it is not working perfect anymore.
This stalling will only happen on a hot engine. That is when the EGR system starts working.

I will be watching your thread and hope you have a fix which I can follow.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
Quick Update:
After that 2nd cleaning of the EGR, it seems that, it takes longer to happen but it still happens. Hitting the EGV valve with the end of the breaker bar like a soft pool stick que shot, seems to snap it back into service.

I expected to have the replacement EGV valve by today but looks like it may be Monday or Tuesday. It was sent with DHL and USPS, so that is the longest deliver times, in my experience.

For shtick and giggles, I replaced the VSV with a different one and the PVC valve with new. No change. That new EGR is going to do it. I'll update in a few days.
 
#21 ·
Pls keep updated. I feel it is the egr valve. BTW, I also have oem egr solenoid switch which I have not yet put in the car. I am so exasperated with this stalling that I will keep on replacing parts one by one till I get it fixed.
Sometimes. some parts check out okay but still cause issues.
 
#22 ·
Solved

All seems well now with a new EGR valve. Like I said earlier, only $17.50 with gasket on ebay and a 1 week delivery time.

Things to consider with EGR valve replacement:
1 - You will be re-using the tube, so you may want a new tube gasket. $1.50 at Autozone. I added some Permatex High Tack sealant to the gaskets, as well. May not be necessary but I have it and it doesn't hurt.
2 - The bolts to the tube may (did) break in the old EGR valve, even after some soaking, so you may want to have 2 new bolts. I believe the originals were M6 with a flange head, probably about 20mm long. I didn't have flange heads, I added washers. You may want to verify these sizes on your vehicle.
3 - I used a 7/8" or 15/16' wrench on the tube nut. I think it is a 24mm but I don't have that wrench. Space is tight. The fuel line and the heater hoses will be in your way but you can work around them. Be careful not to pinch the heater hoses. I removed one of the coil packs, on the last time I removed/install the EGR valve. It helped with accessing that tube nut.
12mm to remove the mounting nuts to the intake manifold. I'd always start with loosening/tightening the tube nut 1st.
 
#24 ·
All seems well now with a new EGR valve. Like I said earlier, only $17.50 with gasket on ebay and a 1 week delivery time.

Things to consider with EGR valve replacement:

...
Thanks for the eBay pointer & good tips there kaz / to all who posted - had the same symptoms pop up yesterday / looks like I have some EGR checks and cleaning to do here, makes sense & appreciated.
 
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