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What Brake Pads Do You Have-Ceramics, Semi, Organic?

7K views 31 replies 12 participants last post by  tedmich 
#1 ·
What type of brake pads do you have?
Why?
Do they wear your discs or are they just fine?
How much dust are you dealing with?
Are you satisfied with their performance or will you change to a different type and if so why?
 
#2 ·
Akebono ProACT Premium Ceramics on all the Toyotas now. Awesome pad. It'll eat rotors like any ceramic. Other than that, quiet, low dust, long life and good braking performance.

Personally I don't install organics, service-grade crap for taxis and the like.

I used to replace rotors at each pad change, but now I get OEM rotors turned (as per ajkalian's great rationale) until I haven't got a choice but to replace.
 
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#3 ·
What is ajkalian's great rationale again? Any link?

I do not resurface rotors. Just keep using them until warp. Then it is time for Centric Premium. Use the same pads as you do. But I did not realize ceramic eats rotors. Any reason for that?
 
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#7 ·
Disk wear isn't even a parameter to worry about, nor is dust/noise...
Pads and rotors wear out. Otherwise, you won't be stopping too well.

I started switching over my vehicles to Raybestos EHT and Wagner OEX... I also prefer the Wagner rotors over the Raybestos rotors. OE rotors(advics) are also extremely high quality. Rotors can be cut/turned a couple times before they are out of spec. So, take a measurement and compare to the required thickness and machine away. I don't recommend or perform pad slaps even though many can usually pad-slap organic or ceramic pads multiple times, as long as pedal doesn't vibrate.

BTW, ceramic pads are usually easier on the rotors than semi-metallics. They vibrate at a higher frequency so they tend to be silent pads, and ceramic dust is less and/or easier to clean off.

https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybestos/en-us/products/brake-pads/element3-eht.html
http://www.wagnerbrake.com/products/brakes/wagner-oex.html

Driving down Pikes Peak or Mt Washington will give you lessons on why I won't use OE pads and don't recommend hohum overrated pads, like the akebonerproacts.. Their ASP pads, if available, are the ones to get.

When someone complains about a brake pad brand/type, its usually a brake job issue. Everything needs to be cleaned/lubed/checked..... and of course a good/thorough brake bleed is needed. Attention to detail is where many brake jobs fail.... I've also seen pathetic brake jobs from dealers.

Back in the day, I used RAV4 truck/suv pads which weren't listed for the Camry. EBC yellows were probably the best that I've used on my '99. If the pad is listed for the RAV4 only, than its usually a better compound and not as civilized as the Camry compound. If using OE pads, I would compare Camry/RAV4 pads at the dealership and see what their DOT codes are. Last time I checked over a decade ago, the Camry had EE pads and the RAV4 were FF pads. Many new pads are FF FG GF or GG. I wouldn't even consider EE pads on a car.
 
#12 ·
Back in the day, I used RAV4 truck/suv pads which weren't listed for the Camry. EBC yellows were probably the best that I've used on my '99. If the pad is listed for the RAV4 only, than its usually a better compound and not as civilized as the Camry compound. If using OE pads, I would compare Camry/RAV4 pads at the dealership and see what their DOT codes are. Last time I checked over a decade ago, the Camry had EE pads and the RAV4 were FF pads. Many new pads are FF FG GF or GG. I wouldn't even consider EE pads on a car.
Seriously you ran Rav4 EBC yellows in your 99 Camry? These pads have totally different shapes on the EBC web site. I'll happily run spendy yellow EBCs in my 99 if they actually fit ;)
 
#9 ·
Used Ceramic all the time. So far no issues.

I gotta find a place to turn my rotors. When I do a brake job on my 1998, probably best to turn all 4 rotors. They are all factory rotors w/ 225K...
 
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#11 ·
BTW, use real silicone brake lube meeting JIS K2228 only. Such as CRC Silaceramic or Permatex Silicone Ceramic Extreme.
https://www.permatex.com/products/l...licone-ceramic-extreme-brake-parts-lubricant/
http://www.crcindustries.com/products/silaramic-174-brake-system-grease-5-wt-oz-05361.html

I think I know what the Japanese are using for caliper pins now: NIGLUBE RM orange paste!! Based on Honda grease packs. Of course now sure what the explanation "fabricated on petrochemical plant" means regarding silicone.

http://www.nippon-grease.co.jp/en/products/grease/g02.html
"2 Special type thickener
Orange, Buttery
For use in high temperatures Rubber grease for lubrication of disc brakes and drum brakes. Also for lubrication of bearings fabricated on petrochemical plant. "

Real shame on Permatex calling the green and purple as safe for rubber and plastic. Now they say these two are for metal-to-metal contact only. We'll see how the orange silicone works. Maybe the orange Permatex is a licensed production of Niglube RM? Dunno.
 
#13 ·
For the caliper slide pins, at 71Corolla’s suggestion, I’ve switched to Toyota’s “rubber grease” p/n 08887-01206. Compared to the Permatex “ultra disk brake caliper lube” I’ve been using, the caliper slides more freely on initial installation.

 
#14 ·
Is this the pink grease? There is a Youtube video showing it stood up to high temperature better than the orange. I *think* the pink may be the Niglube RX, and the orange is the Niglube RM. Yes the 08887-01206 should kick Permatex green and purple's butts.

The Permatex green and purple just seem to kill OEM rubber boots a lot more than they do aftermarket boots. Just pulled some anchor pins and they moved but were hard to, so it's also killing the aftermarket dust boots. Shame on Permatex.

Swapped in new aftermarket dust boots (Carlson) and the orange Permatex silicone from the local store, looking for JIS 2228 standard not finding the CRC opaque one. See how it goes. The Permatex orange looks imported based on Assembled in the USA of global materials instead of the Made in USA for the green and purple.

For the caliper slide pins, at 71Corolla’s suggestion, I’ve switched to Toyota’s “rubber grease” p/n 08887-01206. Compared to the Permatex “ultra disk brake caliper lube” I’ve been using, the caliper slides more freely on initial installation.
 
#15 ·
Yes, it’s pink.
 
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#16 ·
Here is a comparison of the pink and orange. Of course not sure if the 08887-01206 is even Niglube RX, but it stood up to temp better than Mitsubishi's Niglube RM (orange).

Of course, the 08887-01206 still won't match the black grease, not sure what it is. Maybe the typical moly metal-to-metal caliper grease. Dunno.



 
#17 ·
They didn't have a camry listing and the rav4 pads in that year range have the same pad shape FMSI 562. My 99 Camry ran truck/suv pads on it, from its first brake job, until its untimely death. This includes the EBC yellows and various other RAV4 pads including OE. Most catalogs now list both as the application.

I don't care what "file photo" pictures show. I compare the FMSI pad specs. Being able to cross-reference part numbers comes in handy because some automakers, like Toyota, sell multiple brake compounds, of the same pad design, for different vehicles.

Fancy but not needed:
https://www.permatex.com/products/l...-ceramic-extreme-brake-parts-lubricant-24129/
https://www.permatex.com/products/l...atex-ceramic-extreme-brake-parts-lubricant-2/
http://www.crcindustries.com/products/silaramic-174-brake-system-grease-5-wt-oz-05361.html
http://www.crcindustries.com/products/silaramic-174-brake-system-grease-9-wt-oz-05363.html
https://www.permatex.com/products/l...licone-ceramic-extreme-brake-parts-lubricant/

I've never had any issues with ANY of the brake greases, including the generic packets that sometimes comes with rotors, pads, or brake parts kits. If everything is squeaky clean, and you use the correct amount, in the proper locations, then any of the brake greases will work fine. Most issues occur when using too much grease or by putting it everywhere when its not needed. I've even used Super-Lube when I was out of Permatex. Get some Bosch Superfit if you're feeling special.

Products that have never caused me heartache even though many complain about them:
https://www.permatex.com/products/l...kes/permatex-ultra-disc-brake-caliper-lube-4/
http://www.agscompany.com/product/sil-glyde-silicone-brake-lubricant-tube-4-oz/
http://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lubricating-grease-with-syncolon-ptfe-ezp-53.html
 
#18 ·
@greasy.

If Toyota is downgrading to EE friction pads then they really have gone cheap. EE coefficient is not much more than bare metal-to-metal.

Actually, Permatex Green and Purple seem fine on aftermarket boots if I clean and relube every year or two. Notice the hard to move problem when I inspected dust boots this past week that were left on there for a few years. #8&%!

How about going straight semi-mets? Just curious. So the Raybestos EHT is essentially ceramic enhanced semi-mets. That's gotta help in the hills. Not sure what Wagner's OEx formulations are, I guess depends on trucks or cars.
 
#19 ·
The flash point of the best rubber out there is 850° F. I don't think I need to explain why the silly high temperature claims of those various grease products are worthless.
 
#20 ·
Toyota didn't downgrade. EE is still used on brand new Toyotas as it meets their requirements. This is why I don't blindly use OE parts or recommend OE parts. Sometimes, the aftermarket is considerably better and sometimes not any better. If the semi-metallics are equal or better frictional code, I'd have no problem using them. Just remember that they will remind on how good or bad your attention to detail is since they are likely to squeak.

Pictures below are OE pads from a recent Toyota brake job and the EHT replacements. OE pads are EE and Raybestos are GG.
I want my brakes to stop my car always and rapidly in an emergency. I also want good pedal feedback and not mushy compressible brake pad material. And, I want to use that brake feedback to avoid ABS engagement. I don't care if they make a tad bit of noise or dust some. I prefer to stop and not crash thru someone or something.

So, tires and brakes are not something I take shortcuts with. Go for the best and work harder to pay for the best. Price the Raybestos EHT at rockauto/amazon/ebay and see that I didn't need to work any overtime to pay for them.

EE, EF, FE, FF.... are typical across the Toyota platforms. GG are easy enough to find in the aftermarket from almost all brands. This is why I laugh when many say to stick with and blindly use OE pads/parts/etc. If you're stuck on OE and the FMSI matches other platforms, then compare the PN's. You'll have the same pad with different ratings among various Toyota/Scion/Lexus cars/truck/suvs/cuvs... and sometimes with different DOT frictional codes to cater to that vehicle or buyer.

I clean the pins/boots/pinholes spotless at every brake job. Rotors are turned or replaced at every brake job. Brakes are bleed at every brake job, and every couple years. I've never had to regrease anything during the pad life. I'm thinking that rust belt areas might benefit from a disassembly/cleaning/greasing/reassembly. Most grease issues are caused by old/crack/dried/porous seals/boots that weren't replaced at every brake job and should be replaced since its a cheap brake hardware kit purchase. And, many pin/caliper sliding movement issues are caused by using way too much grease on the pins. Grease doesn't move/compress all that well and can expand too much when heated.
 

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#24 ·
My plain transportation saved my life more than once. If I had lesser brakes or tires, I would've joined a couple major highway pileups at a rate of speed that would yield an unknown outcome. Its best to watch the crashes from the rear view mirror. Cheap or OE might not have been too effective.

When compared to Akebonos, my Raybestos EHT's were always 40% cheaper for full front/rear pad sets. $60 for a full set of EHT that would cost $100 for AkebonerProacts.
Front only pads were $50 for the Ake and $35 for the EHTs on another car. Not sure why they cost you the same but the Raybestos price/performance ratio seems excellent.

I've replaced a ton of centric warped rotors. I don't think their quality is on par with Wagner or Raybestos, even though I'd wager the castings probably come from the same prison child labor foundry in asia. I won't use centric rotors anymore. I don't have an issue with Stoptech Ceramic and Sport pads since both seem to be an upgrade from OE, as are many of the store branded pads from Autozone, AdvanceAuto, Carquest, and OreillyAutoparts. The OE/Advics rotors seem to be excellent. I've also used Fremax/Napa rotors without any issues. If you have money to burn, the EBC pads are a great upgrade, but I don't use or recommend the Greens... either get the Reds, Yellows, copper free ExtraDuty, or Ultimax... Once I priced the ExtraDuty pads for the SUV, I decided to skip them. Hawk are still around. Haven't seen any big advertising for them like the ol' days. Same can be said about Carbotech, Porterfield, PerformanceFriction...... They make excellent pads but seem to limit their production to various automakers and are leaving out plenty of the newer cars. Could be that too many drivers want quiet and dustfree and some of the best brakes will make a little noise and produce some dust. God only knows why some consumers only want silent, dust free, mushy pedal, and lasting forever pads that just don't work too well.

No one remembers what happened to SatisfiedBrakes? A little fraud with their brake pad formulas caused their bankruptcy.
 
#27 ·
In my old shop we turned every rotor and drum, even new ones were checked and made perfect. I even turned the adapters on the lathe, and nick in the mating surfaces would waste rotors if you did not stay on top of it.

If there are some miles on the system, you also need to carefully extend the pistons and remove any debris build up so they retract properly for least drag. Rotors also need to be close to the same thickness, replace one while reusing the other at minimum thickness can create pulling issues.

My most memorable example of dragging calipers was being branded by a rotor on my callous pad just below the fingers when i grabbed a rotor and it left "min dia 10.5 mm" on the callouses that were so thick it never blistered.

I can't tell you what pads are on my Echo. they came with the car, have passed inspection and work fine. My driving style basically avoids brake applications and their energy wastage like the plague.
 
#28 ·
Here is a picture of a ProAct next to an EHT pad...

The EHT has more media from less chamfer space wasted and by filling more available space around the backing plate.

I have never felt the need for chamfer yet some brands overchamfer too often... I guess it saves them some media when a mixing batch makes more pads.
 

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#29 ·
I forget what brand I get at the local parts store but I get the semi-metallic pads. I don't have any excessive dust but I get a minor squeal now and then at very slow speeds. I'm still on the original rotors which I have never turned during my ownership between 113,000 miles when I bought it and the current 461,000 miles. Recently, I have noticed a minor braking unevenness so there is a little warp on at least one rotor.
 
#31 ·
Also check to make sure the anchor pins move freely and the piston can be retracted easily. After 10 years I usually rebuild the caliper, maybe like $5 parts each side, caliper seal, dust boot, and anchor pin boots. Just make sure to use a JIS K2228 grease, not one of those Permatex green, purple or Sil-glyde (looks like without silicone but with up to 60% castor oil, what a joke).
 
#32 ·
here is an interesting comparison done by a cop org

https://www.justnet.org/pdf/evaluationbrakepads2000.pdf

This represents one of the most controlled studies I've found.

The EE rated Hawkheads seem better than the FF rated Raybestos cold and pretty close warm and hot. There does not seem to be a good P value on the correlation between DOT codes and performance, IMHO.

Of course Car and Driver liked the EBCs

Orange = Mazda
Green = Hawk HPS
Light Blue = EBC Yellowstuff
Dark Blue = Hawk HP Plus


on their Miata, odd on the 100 mph panic stop..no ABS? Cops saw almost zero difference with ABS from 70 mph
 
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