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Old 12-09-2006, 02:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Real HID's not necessarily "better"

came across this article...
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm

Blinded by the light
Glare from those chic blue HID headlights has many drivers seeing red. Here’s why some lights can be a problem and what you can do.



Odds are, you love high-intensity discharge (HID) headlights if they’re on your vehicle. Lighting tests we’ve begun as part of our vehicle evaluations show that low-beam HID lights flood the roadway with a wider, brighter, more uniform light than regular halogens. But drivers on the receiving end of that light describe it in less-than-glowing terms.

When the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced that it was looking into complaints about glare from HID lights, high-mounted sport-utility-vehicle lights, and fog lights, most of the roughly 4,000 responses that poured in complained about HIDs.

The numbers are especially significant considering that HID-equipped vehicles account for only about 1 percent of U.S. cars and trucks sold.
Automakers note that HID headlights meet current federal standards and attribute the complaints about them to a tendency for drivers to stare at the lights’ distinctive blue-white hue.

But our research and headlight tests of 41 vehicles--some with halogens, some with HIDs--show that HIDs do produce more glare, which is the temporary annoyance or blindness caused by bright light in your field of view. Dirty glasses or contact lenses can increase glare. Experts also say its effects become more noticeable after age 50. While HIDs’ blue hue is part of the glare problem, much of it lies in how their brighter light is distributed.

NHTSA is expected to begin proposing new standards for headlights later this year. Areas under study include the effect of blue light on the eye and the degree to which SUVs’ high-mounted lights cause glare. High-mounted HID lights can be especially glaring; we estimate that they zap vehicles ahead with up to 30 times more light than car-height halogens. Our HID-equipped 2003 BMW X5 and 2003 Range Rover SUVs prompted many oncoming drivers to "flash" us with high beams, even though we were using low beams that were properly aimed.

Glare isn’t the only headlight concern. Accident data and our test results suggest that even bright lights may not be bright enough where it counts. While we’re still gathering the data needed to include headlight Ratings in our vehicle scores, we found some strong performers so far. We also found the HID lights on the Audi TT and halogen lights on the Chrysler Sebring and Pontiac Grand Prix unimpressive.

Varying headlight performance and glare are reasons to perform a nighttime test drive before buying a new vehicle. Here’s what HID headlights do well, and why some are so annoying. We also detail what you can do to protect yourself from glare, and how you can encourage NHTSA to set standards for safer lights.
HID headlights vs. halogen headlights



STARK CONTRAST An HID beam’s sharp edge between light and dark causes the beam to “flash” other drivers when the car travels over uneven surfaces. FADE-OUT Halogens tend to produce a more gradual shift from light to dark.
(Both photographs show headlights projected against a wall.) More light, but mostly to the side
Unlike standard halogen bulbs, which produce light by heating a tungsten filament, HID bulbs send a high-voltage arc across two electrodes. This excites a gas, usually xenon, inside the bulb and vaporizes metallic salts, which sustain the arc.
The result is two to three times the light of halogens while using one-third less energy. Carmakers add that HID bulbs should last much longer than halogen bulbs. But at about $600 per vehicle, those benefits come at a cost.
What the law allows. Federal standards allow high beams to throw lots of light far ahead, but limit low-beam levels for oncoming drivers to minimize glare. Carmakers typically channel an HID’s extra light toward the sides to stay within those standards.
Side light has its benefits. "You’re more likely to see objects on the right side of the road," says Mark Rea, director of the Lighting Research Center at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y.

But neither HID nor halogen lights may provide enough light down the road on their low beams, says Michael Flannagan, senior associate research scientist at the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute. "Each year, some 2,300 pedestrians are killed at night in the road, not on the shoulder," says Flannagan, who analyzed 11 years of nationwide crash data to calculate the effect of darkness on pedestrian fatalities. His 2001 study found that pedestrians are killed at four times the rate in darkness as in daylight.
"The farther drivers can see straight ahead on low beams, the better," says Flannagan. We agree. Unfortunately, while many HID lights we tested were among the better performers, even the best didn’t outdistance the best halogens.

What we found. We compared 31 cars and trucks with halogen lights and 10 with HIDs, measuring their ability to light the road ahead and along the sides as well as checking them for glare (see Headlight testing).
Six out of 10 vehicles with HIDs and 9 out of 31 with halogens reached the 400-foot marker on our test course with low beams, compared with an average of 335 feet for all models tested.
The farthest so far: the inexpensive, halogen-equipped Mazda Protegé5. Its low beams illuminated our 600-foot marker without creating a glare problem.
Both types of lights produced our worst performers. The HID-equipped Audi TT’s low beams lit only to our 200-foot marker, while the halogen-equipped Chrysler Sebring and Pontiac Grand Prix provided weak, nonuniform light.
Little room for error. While even 200 feet of lighting may sound like enough, it may not be. Based on typical reaction times and braking distances, drivers traveling at 50 mph need 237 feet to see a pedestrian, hit the brake pedal, and stop in time. Wet or icy roads and higher speeds increase braking distance, while fog, glare, and fatigue reduce visibility.

GLARE: WHY HIDs CAN CAUSE MORE
Ironically, the same attributes that tend to endear HID headlights to many drivers who have them can account for the lights’ added glare. The major ones:
That blue hue. Experts say that the blue-white tint of high-density discharge headlights can be uncomfortable for oncoming drivers. "The short wavelengths that make the light blue seem to be more glaring," says Rea. He adds that glare increases with age as eyes grow more sensitive to scattered light.
When side light shifts. An HID’s added side light can be a problem on winding roads as right curves aim that light at oncoming drivers.
More wet-weather glare. Added light directly in front of an HID-equipped vehicle can be reassuring from the driver’s seat. But lots of foreground light can also reflect off wet roads and up toward oncoming traffic, creating more glare for drivers coming toward you.
A sharper cutoff. HID headlights tend to define the top of their beams with a sharp horizontal line, compared with most halogens’ smoother fade to darkness. Bumpy roads can cause that sharp beam to flash at oncoming drivers and in the mirrors of cars ahead as it bounces in and out of view.

Glare can be a problem even on smooth, multilaned highways when HID-equipped SUVs are in the left lane. Our test staff found that the higher-mounted lights on those vehicles tended to accentuate HID lights’ sharp cutoff and wide right-side lighting, causing the light to shine directly into the mirrors of vehicles in the right lane.

A BRIGHTER COURSE
In a new nationwide NHTSA survey of 4,321 drivers, 30 percent of respondents found glare from headlights disturbing. "That’s a pretty good chunk," says Michael Perel, the NHTSA research engineer who ran the survey.

In January 2003, Perel told a conference of researchers that new rules may reduce the maximum height for all headlights. NHTSA may also require self-leveling, which adjusts HID beams based on load so they don’t point upward when the vehicle is full. Self-leveling is required in Europe, where HID headlights are currently on 25 percent of all vehicles.

What NHTSA can do. According to Flannagan of the University of Michigan, HID headlights have the potential to provide better forward visibility without more glare if their reflectors and lenses redirected some of the extra light. While the industry lighting engineers we spoke with acknowledged some challenges, they tended to agree.

We think NHTSA should take the following steps:
Require better lighting straight ahead for all headlight low beams.
Adopt the European standard requiring HID headlights to be self-leveling.
Require a smoother, more gradual low-beam cutoff for HID and other headlights to address a key source of glare.
Consider having carmakers chemically alter HID bulbs. Or use color-correcting lenses, which move an HID light’s white spectrum more toward yellow, like that of conventional halogen headlights.
Better control foreground light levels for HID headlights.
Reduce the maximum height of low-beam headlights on SUVs and pickups to make it more in line with the lights on lower passenger cars.
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Old 12-09-2006, 02:46 AM   #2 (permalink)
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There is no blue hue of light, What you see is a refraction of light...I do admit that it can be blinding at times... Bu ti wouldn't call it dangerous. Maybe if ther was a better step created to reduce the left side and keep the right side height....(HINT ECE*) It is sharper..btu if you notice thats why many manfacturers are moving towards fresneled and frosted lens. Glare is is usally associted with light being relfected off of something and boucing upwards into drivers eyes(nt the opposite which the article states)...the problem with hids are that they are blinding only if the car bounces up and down...
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:56 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webb26
There is no blue hue of light, What you see is a refraction of light...I do admit that it can be blinding at times... Bu ti wouldn't call it dangerous. Maybe if ther was a better step created to reduce the left side and keep the right side height....(HINT ECE*) It is sharper..btu if you notice thats why many manfacturers are moving towards fresneled and frosted lens. Glare is is usally associted with light being relfected off of something and boucing upwards into drivers eyes(nt the opposite which the article states)...the problem with hids are that they are blinding only if the car bounces up and down...
Are you an optical or photonic engineer? If not, what makes you more qualified to make such a statement as to refute the results of this study conducted by the scientists at Consumer Reports who are very schooled in the action and measurement of photons and the affect of optics that action.

Just curious?
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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HID's are no big deal to me.
I've drove vehicles with them and don't see what the big deal is.
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:30 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wireless
Are you an optical or photonic engineer? If not, what makes you more qualified to make such a statement as to refute the results of this study conducted by the scientists at Consumer Reports who are very schooled in the action and measurement of photons and the affect of optics that action.

Just curious?
I was only stating my OPINION. But if you really look into my post, no where did i state that they were wrong...I only stated from personal experience. ANd if you really knew smething about kevlin ratings.....you would know that the closet thing to puer white is between 4300-5100. That is the very reason why HID's are that color. IF they were blue...then i there would be no cahnge in output, i might as well get those halogens that are blue coated...or hid ktis rated at 6000k. That is also the very reason why photograpphers look to shoot in pure white light which happens to be 5100 k. Have you ever really looked at HIDS from afar? Do you ever wonder why at some angles they look blue, but at others they look purpole, and sme yellow, and at others white? HIDS don't change color. It is the lens which is curved, that produces those resutls. So you are saying that since most of these people on this forum are not mechanics or are mechanical engineers, then what they say is not valid? What makes them more qualified to say statements about repair and such?


Joe B...i'm surprised you didn't see a difference. I would rather drive with one HID than 2 halogens, lol. BUt its all really personal prefference
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Old 12-09-2006, 10:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wireless
Are you an optical or photonic engineer? If not, what makes you more qualified to make such a statement as to refute the results of this study conducted by the scientists at Consumer Reports who are very schooled in the action and measurement of photons and the affect of optics that action.

Just curious?
Here's the problem with Consumer Reports. (For example)A company like Hyundai or Ford or Chrysler, which only offers maybe 1 model each with HID options, and usually something impractical that isn't making many sales (ie. Corvette) comes along, pays CR a hefty kickback, and CR just so happens to make a report about how bad HIDs are. BIAS. This is the problem with JD Power, CR, and just about everything else. There's always something to gain for these companies in creating these types of reports.

I think all disbelievers should just try it for themselves. Drive a car with HID projectors for a while, and then try going back and driving a car with halogen headlights. Believe me, it'll feel like you're in the dark and can barely see anything.

You don't think they're better? Fine. Thats your opinion. But don't base it on a sketchy (and when I have more time later, I'll get into details about WHY its so sketchy) report.
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Old 12-09-2006, 01:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white3ch0c0late
Here's the problem with Consumer Reports. (For example)A company like Hyundai or Ford or Chrysler, which only offers maybe 1 model each with HID options, and usually something impractical that isn't making many sales (ie. Corvette) comes along, pays CR a hefty kickback, and CR just so happens to make a report about how bad HIDs are. BIAS. This is the problem with JD Power, CR, and just about everything else. There's always something to gain for these companies in creating these types of reports.

I think all disbelievers should just try it for themselves. Drive a car with HID projectors for a while, and then try going back and driving a car with halogen headlights. Believe me, it'll feel like you're in the dark and can barely see anything.

You don't think they're better? Fine. Thats your opinion. But don't base it on a sketchy (and when I have more time later, I'll get into details about WHY its so sketchy) report.


hey mr chocolate,

if i recall, consumer reports is an independent and non-profit report. hence, you see no advertisemnts in their report magazines. well this is what they say...

just my two cents.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by reyrey127
hey mr chocolate,

if i recall, consumer reports is an independent and non-profit report. hence, you see no advertisemnts in their report magazines. well this is what they say...

just my two cents.
Just because its "non-profit" and "independent" and has no ads doesn't mean that they don't take money (kickbacks) from car companies.

Just because I get paid to do something doesn't mean that I'm going to go running around disclosing what I did for who, or even the fact that I was paid.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by white3ch0c0late
Just because its "non-profit" and "independent" and has no ads doesn't mean that they don't take money (kickbacks) from car companies.

Just because I get paid to do something doesn't mean that I'm going to go running around disclosing what I did for who, or even the fact that I was paid.
Fair enough, but then, will you admit that just because you think they are taking kickbacks, doesn't mean they ARE taking them.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:42 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by white3ch0c0late

I think all disbelievers should just try it for themselves. Drive a car with HID projectors for a while, and then try going back and driving a car with halogen headlights. Believe me, it'll feel like you're in the dark and can barely see anything.

I agree 100%. I love my HID's and projectors
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:44 PM   #11 (permalink)
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On a side note there HID eqiupped cars are sebrings and pontiacs . WTF, compare some real HID cars like mercedes and BMW.
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Old 12-10-2006, 12:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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When in the hell did the sebring and grand prix have factory HIDs? Talk about apples and 2x4s.

Consumer reports has always poured cold water on new tech. Besides that, this article is many many years old (april of 03), to use it as an argument for or against anything 3 years later is a waste of everyone's time.

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Old 12-10-2006, 01:26 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Even though the article is 3 years old, I am still frequently blinded by those high mounted HIDs from SUV. Yes people who have HIDs can see further because of the higher light intensity, but please consider all other drivers in front of you.
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Old 12-10-2006, 07:09 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webb26
There is no blue hue of light, What you see is a refraction of light...I do admit that it can be blinding at times... Bu ti wouldn't call it dangerous. Maybe if ther was a better step created to reduce the left side and keep the right side height....(HINT ECE*) It is sharper..btu if you notice thats why many manfacturers are moving towards fresneled and frosted lens. Glare is is usally associted with light being relfected off of something and boucing upwards into drivers eyes(nt the opposite which the article states)...the problem with hids are that they are blinding only if the car bounces up and down...
My criticism of your post was since you spout off like you are an authority. Glare isn't just from a bouncing vehicle. Sitting still they will glare and blind. Light being reflected and refracted will have a significantly attenuated propagation and therefore be a fraction of the direct beam of photon energy. Frosted and fresneled lenses are merely a way of attenuating the light energy transmitted through manual shading. To dumb it down, they are taking a beam that is too strong and making it weaker.

Properly designed halogen projectors like that in much of the Toyota line have always been rated at the top of all headlight performers (including those studies with HID's evaluated) because they can provide the same visiblity under our DOT guidelines as an HID. If we could use ECE (Euro/Global) regs it would be a different story. I miss the -ecodes on my Passat.
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Old 12-10-2006, 11:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Glare isn't just from a bouncing vehicle. Sitting still they will glare and blind.
Um. No. HID kits will. Properly aimed projectors will not.

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Properly designed halogen projectors like that in much of the Toyota line have always been rated at the top of all headlight performers (including those studies with HID's evaluated) because they can provide the same visiblity under our DOT guidelines as an HID.
See my post above. I have an '07 V6 LE Camry with the stock bulbs and halogen projectors sitting in the garage that I drive on a regular basis. Believe me, at night, I would much rather be driving my '02 with HID projectors retrofitted. The difference in visibility is uncanny.
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