5th & 6th Generation (2002-2006 & 2007-2011)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 2002-2006 & 2007-2011
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Getting DEALERSHIP assessment on my smoke at startup problem. Gen 5 Camry
I bought a "beater" Camry as a daily driver. It is a 2002 Camry with around 100K miles. I read about what to look for and noticed this one has the "startup" problem. Purchased the car knowing this issue. Paid $6,000 for the car and it looks brand new on the outside. Friends think I stole it.
Anyhow . . .this is the old problem that has been following Camry’s for quite some time. The valve seals tend to wear out, oil drips into cylinder when sitting for a long time and voila smoke on startup. Many say not a big deal, but I don’t like the idea of the smoke at startup. I bought it thinking I would just have it fixed.
I called the dealer and they are going to confirm it is a valve seal issue for $48.95. The service guy tried to tell me it could be THE "sludge" issue requiring an engine rebuild. Also, told me the valve guide seal repair is around $700.
Just some thoughts:
I am kind of concerned . . . just these two engine issues with a Camry that I did not have on my previous 1996 Saturn that I just sold to get this Camry. The CHEAP Saturn had none of these issues. I know some of you are going to jump on the what about this car or that car, but the bottom line is that Camry’s have issues that really should not exist. Toyota should have fixed this valve seal issue YEARS ago. Not to mention the sludge issue.
Anyhow, just wanted to get some ideas and thoughts from peeps that have done or have had this repair done.
NOTE: I have read TONS of posts where peeps say it is from NOT keeping up with oil changes/updates. Obviously this is not the case since this car and a number of others were maintained meticulously.
Last edited by CharmCityES; 03-12-2008 at 09:11 PM.
***** I have read here on TN . . .others on this board have the same exact issue. I am having. Not to mention a number of reviews from other websites. I see by the number of posts you must LIVE on this board alone, but there is life outside of Toyotanation.**
to say this is not an issue is your personal opinion.
The '02 Camry doesn't have a gel/sludge problem.
** I have read others on this board post the same exact issue. I am having. Not to mention a number of reviews from other websites. I see by the number of posts you must LIVE on this board alone, but there is life outside of Toyotanation.** Not to mention the "stealership" said this is a common problem on high mileage toyotas. .
The word "stealership" is ghey.
I have seen your replies to other posts. I don't understand why your posts have to be so brash, people are here to share ideas, not to be bashed by someone that hides behind a million posts . . . I like this board very much . . but responses like this are less than friendly.
Please post the information you have regarding the particular engine you have, and it's sludge issues even when they are "meticulously" maintained.
I should have clarified and said I have the 4 cylinder.
Wow. Here we go again. Another whiner that fails to deliver.
Please note that by using the word "stealership" you offend people that do work, or have worked at the dealership. Many are honest hard working people and don't appreciate your insult. However, you feel that MY post was offensive to you? I'm not seeing it really, but apparently it was enough to make you cry. Maybe it was me asking for you to show the information that you really don't have proving your claims.
And just so you know, you must have bought a neglected piece of crap. 2AZ-FE's don't have sludge problems or valve seal problems. You're the one with the opinion, and a junker by the sounds of it...
Do I need to find the sludge post for you also? Maybe you should try the search like you preach to soo many others.
BTW, I was tempted to scan all the papwerk from the dealership showing an oil change very 3,500 miles. Plus every major service in between. But I think me showing you were wrong with just ONE seach will satisfy my "web ego".
Do I need to find the sludge post for you also? Maybe you should try the search like you preach to soo many others.
BTW, I was tempted to scan all the papwerk from the dealership showing an oil change very 3,500 miles. Plus every major service in between. But I think me showing you were wrong with just ONE seach will satisfy my "web ego".
Actually, you are the one making my points for me.
Finding seven posts that have smoke in it really doesn't mean anything. After all, they all didn't have leaking valve seals or were 2.4's. One of your threads that did actually pertain to 2.4 valve seals had an OP that couldn't even answer if he was using the proper oil. Another was NOT.
Your right though. After personally seeing THOUSANDS of 2AZ-FE's, it's my opinion that they don't have a sludge problem. I have yet to ever see one that was properly maintained, develop sludge.
Apparently you actually do need a web ego. After all, what kind of person would constantly insult every person that works at a car dealership from the safety of his computer. Try doing that in real life. Go to the dealer and start calling every employee you see a thief and see what happens. You can't. I'm sure that you already know why.
Valve seals leaking isn't a problem. All gaskets and seals wear out over time. It's not a defect, or a problem. It's just a fact of life that occurs in every car no matter how much it costs. Improper maintenance will accelerate the degradation of any of those componants. That's the reason it's important to check the front engine seals when the timing belt is replaced at 90,000 miles. Oil leaks do start to occur with more frequency on all vehicles around 100,000 miles.
Being blunt and randomly insulting others are two different things. I'm just a blunt person. Only a coward can't do in person, what he does without hesitation behind the safety of his computer screen.
I reviewed my first post again, and stand by it for the most part but will make some minute changes:
You are obviously misinformed.
The '02 Camry doesn't have a valve seal problem. All seals wear out over time. It should be expected that a car will have some leaks at 100,000 miles, especially seals.
The '02 Camry doesn't have a gel/sludge problem. I've seen thousands of them personally.
The word "stealership" is ghey and only a complete coward would call dealership employees thieves behind the safety of their computer. Only a complete coward would think it's alright to do so, and then get mad if someone posts:
Quote:
You are apparently misinformed.
The '02 Camry doesn't have a valve seal problem.
The '02 Camry doesn't have a gel/sludge problem.
The word "stealership" is ghey.
Your ego seems to be frail, and so do you. I'm sorry if that statement offends you. You're the one that provided that supporting facts for that opinion.
A
The '02 Camry doesn't have a valve seal problem. All seals wear out over time. It should be expected that a car will have some leaks at 100,000 miles, especially seals.
So lets try to answer his question, which I believe started that she thinks her seals need to be taken care of and it should be less than $50 bucks (call it an issue or normal wear out - don't care, but 100k sounds wear out) and that should solve the smoke issue. The dealer however eluded to the case it could be a more severe issue and cost much more (aka engine rebuild or $700 for the valve guide seal repair).
So, what do you think it is - a 50 buck service or an expensive repair - judging from his description of the smoke at startup? Should be easy to say yes or no for an experienced guy.
PS to the OP: Just looked at the cardomain page - I guess I should change from "he" to"she"?!
So lets try to answer his question, which I believe started that she thinks her seals need to be taken care of and it should be less than $50 bucks (call it an issue or normal wear out - don't care, but 100k sounds wear out) and that should solve the smoke issue. The dealer however eluded to the case it could be a more severe issue and cost much more (aka engine rebuild or $700 for the valve guide seal repair).
So, what do you think it is - a 50 buck service or an expensive repair - judging from his description of the smoke at startup? Should be easy to say yes or no for an experienced guy.
PS to the OP: Just looked at the cardomain page - I guess I should change from "he" to"she"?!
Yes, the valve seals probably are starting to leak. Only the OP can measure the oil consumption caused by it, but I'm guessing it's very little.
The valve seals themselves are inexpensive, it's the labor the drives the price up to the claimed estimate of $700.
robsatx the reason it was a steal is probably because of the engine smoking issue. They may have quoted valve seals for $48 but they must have been talking about parts only.
There are two ways to go on this, replace the valve seals or just have a valve job done (since it has 100 k miles already, might as well.) If you work on cars yourself it is going to be much much cheaper but a few days work for you. If you pay to have it done it will be close to $1000 or more if you have a valve job done.
$700 to change valve seals is probably about right, they have to remove the camshafts to get to the valve seals. Then the valves are held shut by compressed air through an adaptor in the plug hole while the tech removes the old seals and replaces them with the new ones.
I think i'd just go ahead and do a valve job at this time, the cost is not going to be much more and there is going to be expensive labor on the cylinder head either way. If you can do it yourself, remove the camshafts and replace the valve seals yourself. or just swap the old head with a remanufactured one and change the t-belt while youre at it. Like i said, a couple days work and maybe about $500 if you bolt on a remanufactured head.
tob and marc thank you for your kind and constructive posts. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post in a professional manner . . . as others would like to be treated. Greatly appreciated!!
Not sure I was clear, but I bought the car aware of the valve seals. I researched this and other sites before buying a camry (this site ROX with an exception of a few bad eggs) . . .According to this site and a few others valve sels seems to be a common issue. I figured around $1,500 to get the car up to speed and the cherry condition the body and interior is in, I thought it was a killer deal. Still do. Even if I spend $2k, I am still only $8K into the car. It runs and drives awesome, I just dont like the smoke at startup.
I kind of like the idea of a reman head, but also think just doing the seals would hold me over. I only plan to keep the car for about a year and trade to another. This is an extra car to drive around when I am working at different places. SAves me on gas and wear and tear on my primary car . .
I was hoping to find someone has already done the seals and reported they were happy with the results.
$48 is to verify their is no sludge in the engine. They will pull the valve cover and do a visual.
$700 (roughly) is to do the valve seals.
I searched and have not found anyone that paid for this service. I pmed a couple of guys that said it was done under warranty . . but to no avail. I did not want to post until I exhausted my other options.
Please note that by using the word "stealership" you offend people that do work, or have worked at the dealership. Many are honest hard working people and don't appreciate your insult.
If the people who work, or have worked at stealerships didn't create a stingy, greedy, a$$hole atmosphere, then these "establishments" would not have been called stealerships. So...until the "cause" remains, so will the "effect" on customers' perception.
Dealing with stealerships is a total PAIN, and they deserve at the VERY LEAST to be called this. Sometimes if I have a valid problem which I may have been able to claim under warranty, I still prefer to pay money and have my mechanic fix it instead. This way at least I know I won't be treated badly, lied to, and I won't have to drive to an inconvenient part of town. Oh...and I won't have to wait 24 hours for an oil change.
__________________ 2008 Camry Hybrid | Magnetic Grey on Grey Leather | Bi-Xenon H1 4300K Retrofit | Italian Hertz Sound System (dash 4" EM 100, front 6.5" ECX 165, rear 6" x 9" ECX 690, 10" ES 250D sub in custom trunk enclosure, HDP5 5-channel amp, 1320W total power) | 4-sensor Rear Parking System | 20% Metallic Tint | Weathertech Floorliners | 17" ASA AR1 Rims | Toyo Garit KX (winter) | Toyo Versado LX II (summer)
The dealership that I bought my car from is exactly as you describe it. Since then, I've become aware of what they can potentially become - a stealership! But I've been lucky so far, because the other dealership that I been bringing my car for minor services and warranty issues have been great to work with. Yes, they do have a long line for oil change, but they also have a nice "1-hr wait and you get your next oil change FREE" policy. I've gotten 2 free ones so far
Sorry to digress OP. But like you stated, investing in a $700 (or $2000) repair to increase your car's longevity is worth it in your case, especially since you paid a lot less than waht others might have. In fact, my sister just got an 02 Camry LE with all the bells and whistles at 45k miles for a lil over $10g. So far, so good.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with my 89 Tercel, replacing the valve seals was an easy work, and required AT MOST 3 hours of labor. So why is she/he beign quoted $700?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yazovets
If the people who work, or have worked at stealerships didn't create a stingy, greedy, a$$hole atmosphere, then these "establishments" would not have been called stealerships. So...until the "cause" remains, so will the "effect" on customers' perception.
Dealing with stealerships is a total PAIN, and they deserve at the VERY LEAST to be called this. Sometimes if I have a valid problem which I may have been able to claim under warranty, I still prefer to pay money and have my mechanic fix it instead. This way at least I know I won't be treated badly, lied to, and I won't have to drive to an inconvenient part of town. Oh...and I won't have to wait 24 hours for an oil change.
__________________ I replaced my 4-cyl with another 4-cyl, equally powered, but faster ride...
Agree with McCeatelot, lets not generalize dealers - I am very happy with my dealer so far. I bought my car their (and a Matrix a few years back, which I sold back to them at a fair price) and they helped me with many of my mod's. I like that some of their mechanics are also car freaks and one of them even has a custom shop on the side....that is the place I go when I need an independent answer. I guess I am lucky...because my dealer is the ONLY toyota dealer in my town anyway.... :-)
Robsatx: Thanks for the comment on my ride. Do you also take your taco to this dealer? If you are not happy with their service, you probably should try another one, if you have the choice (not like me). Maybe also good in general to have more than one technicians opinion before spending 1-2k on the fix?
Agree with McCeatelot, lets not generalize dealers - I am very happy with my dealer so far. I bought my car their (and a Matrix a few years back, which I sold back to them at a fair price) and they helped me with many of my mod's. I like that some of their mechanics are also car freaks and one of them even has a custom shop on the side....that is the place I go when I need an independent answer. I guess I am lucky...because my dealer is the ONLY toyota dealer in my town anyway.... :-)
Robsatx: Thanks for the comment on my ride. Do you also take your taco to this dealer? If you are not happy with their service, you probably should try another one, if you have the choice (not like me). Maybe also good in general to have more than one technicians opinion before spending 1-2k on the fix?
I need to update my profile, I now have a lifted 2008 4x4 Tundra Limited CrewMAX (every option) + Lots of mods, I really like the truck. The camry is my beater . . .
On the "stealership", I can tell you stories - but wont bother with details. Also, I am glad there are folks on this board who know it is ok to agree to disAgree on items without getting rude or nasty.
I am actually taking to a reputable shop tomorrow. The $1,500 to $2,000 is a stretch for new tires, brakes, tint etc. Not sure if it needs any of the mechanical but budgeted just in case. I have owned cars long enough to know, it is usually more than you plan. Hopefully not the case here.
I need to update my profile, I know have a lifted 2008 4x4 Tundra Limited CrewMAX (every option) + Lots of mods, I really like the truck. The camry is my beater . . .
On the "stealership", I can tell you stories - but wont bother with details. Also, I am glad there are folks on this board who know it is ok to agree to disAgree on items without getting rude or nasty.
I am actually taking to a reputable shop tomorrow. The $1,500 to $2,000 is a stretch for new tires, brakes, tint etc. Not sure if it needs any of the mechanical but budgeted just in case. I have owned cars long enough to know, it is usually more than you plan. Hopefully not the case here.
Thanks again for the input guys.
Sorry, somehow I messed up my memory aka Taco vs Tundra. Yeah, I always spend more than I plan on everything - car, house, wife, kids...you name it I spend it.
I did have some not so good experiences with dealers in the past as well - just not my one and only Toyota dealer.
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Getting DEALERSHIP assessment on my smoke at startup problem. Gen 5 Camry
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