Advice on lemon law buyback/arbitration

[thrawnis]

I own a 2007 Camry SE V6 with pretty much every option except for navi. Over the past 9 months, the car has had numerous non-drivetrain related problems. So far the number of problems exceeds 25 things (many of which are repeat problems that were supposedly "fixed" by the dealership). Some examples of these problems include the radio/head unit problems (JBL head unit randomly turns off, the screen not working intermittently, volume controls stop working, and many more things), digital compass flickers, passenger front grab handle has fallen off three separate times even after being replaced twice, sunroof rattling problems, headliner was repeatedly reinstalled improperly after repair work, seatbelt sliders not re-installed properly after numerous sunroof repair attempts, black plastic shrouding half came off the car while driving on the freeway and (if I didn't stop) would have hit a following car), brake squealing problems on 3 of the 4 wheels, etc, etc, etc. While any single problem may not be considered serious/major, the sheer volume of problems is what I am most concerned about.

The point of getting a Camry was to have a reliable, care-free mode of transportation for getting to and from school and work but still have a great looking and fun car. While the car is definitely a lot of fun to drive, after 8 separate trips to the dealership to have the above problems (and many more issues) fixed, many new issues (as well as previous issues resurfacing) continue to come up.

In all honesty, even after all the problems I have experienced with the car and Power Toyota in Irvine, I absolutely LOVE the car. It has excellent power, the gas mileage is reasonable, interior layout and design is excellent (although very poorly quality parts and poor tolerances in regards to fit-and-finish), and I enjoy every moment of the drive... But at the end of the day, I can not afford to take time off of work and be left without a car for 2-3 days at a time to have these issues resolved (even though many problems end up resurfacing later). At this point, I have contacted Toyota's corporate offices and filed a request for a lemon-law buyback. On March 19th I will have a teleconference call with the arbitration company and Toyota corporate to see if they will be willing to buy back my car.

I have several questions for all of you...
- Does anyone here have any advice on how I can prepare for this meeting?
- Any opinions on whether I am being unreasonable or if the action I am taking is excessive?
- Do I have any other options besides a traditional lawsuit? Trade-in is of course a possibility, but I feel I would lose a significant amount of money seeing as I have had the car for less than a year.
- Any other thoughts/suggestions?

Thank you very much for any advice/suggestions you can provide as well as taking the time to read my post.

[thoots]

That sounds mainly like you've had an electrical gremlin and a moonroof rattle, and some really incompetent dealer service work.

I don't think any of it adds up to "lemon law" stuff -- it's all stuff that a competent dealer should address, and get you back on the road in fine shape.

I'd recommend getting a different dealer to work on it, perhaps with help of Toyota Corporate. Again, it appears that a greater proportion of the problems have had to do with inept service work, and the rest are entirely fixable things.

Lemon laws generally have to do with far more major defects that render your vehicle unavailable for a certain amount of time, and/or unsafe to drive -- and none of your stuff really fits into that category. Look up the lemon laws in your state, and see what qualifies or not.

Again, I think you'll have much better luck with a different dealer and some corporate support, than you would with the lemon law process.

Good luck!

[skyxliner]

lemon law is actually just any reoccurring problem in which the dealer is unable to fix.

so if you have all these problems, and you bring it into the dealership and they fixed it once and you never have problems again, i doubt you can use lemon law. but lets say your door gets stuck from time to time and this is the 4,5th time you've brought it in for dealer to fix and they weren't able to fix it. then no matter what the problem is, you have a case for lemon law.

your going to have to check the details on how many times it needs to be fixed and documented by the dealership. there are a LOT of lawyers willing to take your case and if you lose you pay him nothing. they only take a portion of the winning settlement.

experience: won a lemon settlement case with honda over an odyssey. got money back for blue book value of remaining life of the car and actually made a small bit back to purchase another odyssey.

the thing is, if you take it to dealer and they fix it one time, then you can't get that money back and take it to lemon law case. it's a gamble.

[geoff5093]

Originally Posted by skyxliner

lemon law is actually just any reoccurring problem in which the dealer is unable to fix.

It's not just any reoccurring problem, it has to be a reoccurring major problem that compromises the safety of the vehicle. Something like the transmission slip may qualify, but having the radio replaced several times for instance wouldn't qualify, at least in my state.

[TRD VVTi]

Originally Posted by geoff5093

It's not just any reoccurring problem, it has to be a reoccurring major problem that compromises the safety of the vehicle. Something like the transmission slip may qualify, but having the radio replaced several times for instance wouldn't qualify, at least in my state.

+1

A simple search could have furnished the OP with a Lemon Law link for his state.

http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon.php

Type "lemon law california" in any search engine and any question you ever had could easily be answered.

[toyomoho]

Your new car should not have this many issues. As Thoots states part of the problem may be poor dealer service. Some dealers love warranty work, others shy away because they make less money or break even on repairs.

Arbitration is not a sure thing and Toyota will present as strong as case as possible that their car is NOT a lemon. Stating they are doing every thing possible to resolve the problems as they come up. Remember, the dealer and Toyota Corp are well versed in handling these types of situations whilst this will be your first time through the process.

There are some statistics on the web about customer satisfaction with arbitration in Calif, Toyota owners are the least satisfied.

Suggest getting as much info as possible before going to the meeting. Perhaps there are websites posting others experiences, if serious buy an hours worth of a lawyers time. Would also have all the documentation on the problems, dates, resolution, etc.

My own opinion is to press the issue with Toyota Corp in a polite but firm and ongoing way. They no doubt want you to go away, but if you continue to persist, in a polite and firm manor no doubt you will make headway.

Have you talked to the dealerships owner, often if approached right they will go the extra mile. Unfortunately once you lawyer up or go to arbitration they may take a harder stance as in why bother.

Yes, it is unfortunate you have to go through this nonsense with a new car, but this is the way it is, at least for now. I would suggest a sending a polite letter to the Toyota President expressing your frustration and disappointment with the car and service. Often top management is so far away from the problem they only hear what their yes people tell them, that every thing is wonder.

[thrawnis]

Thanks for your help everyone!

Yeah, I have done a bit of research on the lemon law with California already and it seems fairly vague and open to interpretation. While that can be good in some situations, it may be less helpful in others. Some websites indicate that the issues with the car must be related to safety or drivetrain issues while others indicate it can be any constantly issue that presents itself repeatedly even after repeated attempts to fix that problem.

In my situation, about a third of the problems seem to be related to actual defects in the car and the others are due to incompetent service techs (as thoots stated). The service managers are often are willing to look into the issue but are unwilling to actually help me resolve them. For example, with the gas tank shrouding/cover that came loose, the dealership acknowledged there was a problem, acknowledged that it was not due to me bottoming the car out on something as there were no scuff or scratch marks, and would only just re-attach the already partially melted part back on to the car! The car only had 1.5k miles on it and they refused to replace it with a new part until I complained (calmly) about it three times!

Before starting with arbitration, I spoke to the warranty manager, 2 sales managers, and the P.R. manager at Power Toyota Irvine. While the warranty manager was very nice and felt very bad about my situation, he and the others all blatantly just pointed to arbitration through Toyota Corporate as the only way to resolve this issue or to just keep bringing my car back until all the problems are resolved.

I guess, as toyomoho suggested, I will just have to compile as much information as I can before the arbitration teleconference call to try and be prepared....

[skyxliner]

the main issue i was able to file lemon law on my odyssey was because the alignment was off and the car would repeatedly drift to the side going a straight line. of course this a common issue with cars, but if you can somehow find one issue that poses a safety hazard, you can use that to file lemon law and add the other minor problems as a bonus.

good luck, i suggest giving lemon law a try too since there are many lawyers willing to take your case for free. and often if you tell them your car troubles, they'll tell you what your likelihood of winning is.

wish you best of luck!