Suspension wear help, what needs doing? (long)

[AlexLemond]

Hi everybody, I was switching over to my winter wheels on my '02 Camry SE V6, and did some prying/wiggling/tweaking on the bushings in the front suspension just to see if anything was worn. The car has 80K+ mi, I've only owned it a year and as far as I can tell everything in the front end is original, but since I don't have anything to compare it to I'm not sure what is worn and needs replacement and what is the way it should be.

With the suspension at full droop (i.e. I've got the wheel off and a stand at the jacking point on the frame behind the wheelarch, and the hub/rotor is just hanging there), I'm seeing three potential problems:

• It looks like the boot under the lower balljoint is compressed completely flat, and oozing grease.
• Same thing with the boot covering the joint where the outer tie rod meets the back of the hub (the weird-shaped casting that Toyota calls the "steering knuckle").
• And the miniature balljoints at either end of the sway bar link are loose enough that I can grab the link and twist (like turning a screwdriver) and turn it a quarter-turn each way before I feel any resistance.

Here are a couple of pics:
Lower ball joint
Tie rods


Funny thing is there doesn't seem to be any play in the balljoint, though (measured the usual way by trying to move the wheel up and down with a prybar with the weight of the car just barely lifted off the front suspension). I do feel a vibration in the steering when braking from 30 mph or so. I've already tested the discs for warpage with a dial indicator and found the runout virtually unmeasurable (less than .001 in.).

The factory service CD I have says that to replace the balljoint you have to remove the lower control arm and half-shaft, which seems stupid since the balljoint obviously bolts on as a separate assembly. Of course, I want to avoid pulling the engine if I can help it, if the whole LCA doesn't need replacement (nice engineering, Toyota! Not.).

Last thing, if I end up replacing the balljoints or the outer tie rods, I hate to spend $150 on the special Toyota balljoint press when I can get a generic tool for less money that'll do the same job on other cars as well... so would one of these work?
OTC 6295 Front End Service Tool Kit
OTC 7311a Pitman Arm Puller

Sorry about the long post but I figured I'd ask all my questions in one go... any recommendations or input would be helpful!

Thanks,
Alex

[JohnGD]

They kinda look normal from what I can see in the pictures. Of course, not any detail in grease leaks. You'll probably have some seepage with age. And of course that comes before joints fail.

[AlexLemond]

Still wondering what other people think of this. The shimmy I mentioned is still there, maybe worse with winter rubber on (which tends to amplify any suspension problems in my experience, something to do with the softer compound I guess). I'm thinking the sway bar links are the most likely culprit, since I really don't think I should be able to twist them so easily...

[AlmightyCamry777]

I have about 127 k on mine - same car as yours V6 - and i have replaced my share of front end parts on other cars in the past. When something in the front end needs replacing it will usually let you know loud and clear. Why not take it to a reputable front end shop and have them check?

I do feel a vibration in the steering when braking from 30 mph or so.

99 times out of 100 this is a sign of warped discs. I know you measured it with a dial indicator but this still may be so anyway. If it were some other part such as a worn out wheel bearing or hub, it would do it all the time not just during braking. You can find new rotors for $25 - 35 each.

[AlexLemond]

Originally Posted by AlmightyCamry777

When something in the front end needs replacing it will usually let you know loud and clear. Why not take it to a reputable front end shop and have them check?

Because I'd rather take the money I would give to a shop and instead buy the tools I need and do it myself. I've done plenty of suspension work on other cars, but have never seen balljoints in a state where the boot could be squashed flat just by the weight of the hub, yet there's no play in the joint itself; and I've never seen a sway bar design like Toyota uses, where the sway bars are attached not directly to the hub but by a link with balljoints on it. (Seems counter to the purpose of a sway bar to not have it firmly attached to the parts it's trying to keep from torquing.) Hence my questions.

99 times out of 100 this is a sign of warped discs. I know you measured it with a dial indicator but this still may be so anyway.

I see your point, that the warpage may not be enough to register on a dial indicator with only the typical .001" accuracy, but still be present. But I don't think warped disks happen nearly as often as most people think---maybe 50% of the time at most it's the cause of a shimmy (see http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml for a good discussion why).

If it were some other part such as a worn out wheel bearing or hub, it would do it all the time not just during braking.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree---the weight transfer during hard braking puts so much stress on the front end that suspension wear symptoms can show up then that don't manifest at any other time.

You can find new rotors for $25 - 35 each.

I'd rather not just throw new parts at the problem. Besides, I bet decent rotors (aftermarket drilled or slotted, or Toyota OE) would cost a lot more than that---and then there's pads, too. I can get the new sway bar links for less than that if that's the issue.

Maybe I should just go to the Toyota parts counter, ask to see one of those sway bar links, and see how loose the baby balljoints at the ends are... but doesn't anyone here work at a Toyota dealer who could do that for me?

[darksparkz]

Take off the sway bar end links and see if there's a lot of play on the ends, if so, then you might as well replace those too. Usually they have very little play, but at 80k, if they are the original ones, then they may need to be replaced, especially if the boots are ripped.

Maybe swaybar bushings need replacing as well?

You can try to just have the rotors resurfaced if they still have life in them, and see if that solves the issues.

[AlexLemond]

Originally Posted by darksparkz

Take off the sway bar end links and see if there's a lot of play on the ends, if so, then you might as well replace those too. Usually they have very little play, but at 80k, if they are the original ones, then they may need to be replaced, especially if the boots are ripped.

The boots aren't ripped but there is a LOT of play as I said in my first post, I can twist them back and forth with no effort at all. So you're saying that like I thought that's not normal?

Or do you mean play in and out on the little balljoints, i.e., analogous to play vertically on the lower balljoint behind the hub?

Maybe swaybar bushings need replacing as well?

You mean the tubular-shaped bushings that isolate the bar from the underside of the body, a foot or so inboard of the links? They don't look too bad, and I am dreading changing them since it would mean sliding the new ones in from the end of the bar to get them where they want to go, which I imagine is a slow, unpleasant process---any tricks on those? (I already know about burning the old ones out with a propane torch...)

You can try to just have the rotors resurfaced if they still have life in them, and see if that solves the issues.

Yeah, I might do that. I have rotor calipers and IIRC the minimum width is stamped on them so I can easily check that.

Thanks for the helpful post!

[darksparkz]

Yeah, if it requires no effort at all, then it's worn out, usually they require at least some effort. And yes, I do mean the sway bar end links, that connects the sway bar to the strut itself. It's not required to replace them, since I doubt they really make noises or anything, but just in terms of overall suspension quality would be good to be replaced.

Yeah, the bushings that connect the body to the sway bar, usually they have a small slit in them that they can come off the sway bar, without needing to slide it throughout the bar itself. You can just grease them with white lithium if they look fine, spray the heck out of them.

The upper strut mount in the front/rear sometimes makes creaking/thunking noises overtime, very common on Camrys, they may need to be replaced too.

[AlexLemond]

Thanks darksparkz, I will go ahead and replace the sway bar links then.

What do you think about my lower balljoints and tie rods given the picture in my first post? (Car on stands, weight of the hub on the balljoint, the boot is fully compressed and leaking a little grease around the edges, but there doesn't seem to be any play in the joint itself. Same situation for the outer tie rod end.)

[AlexLemond]

Vibration on braking turned out to be a bad caliper that wasn't hugging the rotor when the pedal was released, allowing the rotor to flop back and forth as the wheel flexed (especially with steelies, hence my noticing that my winter wheels made the symptoms worse).

I replaced both calipers, both disks (now vented, and the old ones were getting thin), and of course pads (now semi-metallic). Huge improvement.

And I replaced the sway bar end links with Moog replacements from RockAuto, the mini ball joints on which were way tighter than the ones on the car. Another huge improvement in steering crispness, and no more axle tramp on hard acceleration (which I had thought was an unavoidable feature of such a powerful car with FWD). Bonus: the new links have zerk fittings on them so they can be regreased! Hooray for parts that aren't "lifetime lubricated!" (Whose lifetime? A fruit fly's?)