Dilemma with soft brake pedal on 2003 camry

[ilyaphd10]

Hello all, I have 2003 camry, original ownership. got 70k on it. Changed front pads and rotos 1.5-2 years ago. Never changed rear brakes. I always had kind of soft feeling of the brake pedal but was not concerned. The car was braking fine. Recently, the pedal path seem to get bigger. meaning i need to push it more and more. Last night I checked and here is the result: front: 20-30% wear estimated, rotors in great shape (brembos rock). Rear: drums in great shape, shoes, maybe 40-50% worn. Adjusted and cleaned shoes so that the hand brake is nice and tight. Bled the brakes a bit to check for air, nothing. Although I may add that when gas pedal pushed, brake fluid was not squirting out rather oozing out. Not sure if this is normal. Have not bled enough brakes to tell. The break pedal is still soft and requires some effort to stop the car although tried emergency type of braking on dry road, car stops no problem no pull anywhere.

Am I imagining things? or do i need to investigate this more and it is a serious problem. Anyone got ideas?

[catric69]

You may want to invest in a brake fluid flush. It's very inexpensive and easy to accomplish with two people.

[ilyaphd10]

Are you thinking the brake fluid lost its qualities?

[LE05]

+ 1 on the brake fluid flush. if it has not been done in several years, its overdue. over the years, the fluid soaks up moisture from the atmosphere (even though its "sealed"), and when you brake hard... it'll boil that moisture and create air in the lines.

[LoudCamry]

i did a brake flush plus used ss brake line, feel a lots better.

[ilyaphd10]

Thank for all the replies. Local toyota dealer charges 130 for it. Is it worth going or just do it myself or in any generic garage. Also, what does it mean ss brake lines? sorry, I am not sure what you mean.

[catric69]

DIY for about $10. SS= stainless steel brake lines.

[ilyaphd10]

ok thanks. I doubt that I can embark to change brake lines but i like the DIY option. The dealership says that they flush the brake likes in such special way with force. is that a sales gimmick? When I flush, do i simply open a couple of sides, let it ooze out, refill, pump out air and done?

[catric69]

I Nor TN is responsible for any damage cause to your vehicle by following this guideline. Good luck with the brake flush!

FLUSHING THE SYSTEM

Note: The key is to start at the furthest point away from the brake cylinder. I start at the rear passenger -> rear driver -> front passenger -> front driver.

You'll need some hose to fit on the brake bleeder valves (preferably clear), a container to catch the fluid, a brake bleeder wrench, and a can of spray brake cleaner. You'll also need a container or two of fresh brake fluid. Brake fluid is classified as DOT 3 (minimum boiling point of 400-degrees), DOT 4 (450-degrees), and DOT 5 or 5.1 (500-degrees). Practically every car uses DOT 3 or 4-don't use the DOT 5 or 5.1 silicone brake fluids. They are not compatible with regular fluids and have several disadvantages that make them unsuitable for street use (some racecars use them). Clean the master cylinder by spraying it with the brake cleaner. This eliminates the possibility of dirt entering the system. Open the master cylinder and draw out the old fluid (a turkey baster works well here). Fill the cylinder with new
fluid.

Next jack the car up so you can gain access to each brake. Loosen the bleeder valve slightly. Always use a tubing wrench - regular wrenches may strip the bleeder screw. If you can't loosen the valve, try some penetrating oil or even heating it up. A propane torch works here (but a lighter will do in a pinch). Hopefully, that'll be enough. If you manage to snap the bleeder screw off, you're in a bit of trouble.

You'll need an assistant to do this correctly, although there are one-person brake bleeding kits available. The way I do it is to have the assistant press on the brake pedal upon my call. To avoid bottoming-out the pedal completely, place a small piece of wood behind the brake pedal. When the assistant presses down on the pedal as far as it can go, have him/her call out "Down." As the pedal is pushed down, open the brake bleeder valve to let the old fluid out into the container. When the assistant calls out that the pedal is down, immediately close the valve. Repeat the process until the fluid that comes is clear (you'll have to refill the master cylinder several times). Then go to the next wheel and repeat the process.

Cars with anti-lock brakes may require a slightly different procedure on the rear brakes. Because the system is pressurized, have your assistant turn the car on, press on the brake pedal, turn off the ignition and then just rest his/her foot on the pedal. Open the bleeder valve and let the fluid stream out for about ten seconds or so. Close the valve and add some more fluid at the master cylinder. On some systems, the assistant may have to keep pushing down on the pedal to let the old fluid out.

After you're done, have your assistant step on the brakes two to three dozen times to exhaust the high-pressure reservoir on ABS systems. This will make the brake fluid level rise in the master cylinder. When it stops rising, you're done. To get rid of the brake warning light that'll be on at this point, step on the brakes hard. You don't need to do this every time your vehicle has a brake job, but every third time is a good idea (if you keep the vehicle that long).

[AlmightyCamry777]

There's some mighty good posts here all in agreement. Bleeding the brakes can be tricky since there is only one way to tell if you got all the air out, and that is pedal feel.
Don't forget with a soft brake pedal issue like this, the master cylinder should be bled too. Which could be the problem.

If you are bleeding the brakes yourself, and have no one available to help, it's still possible to do the job. You need the little kit that comes with clear tubing and a small bottle for new brake fluid, that you press fit over the bleeder valve on each brake. You can also replace the small bottle with a bigger one, any bottle will work, and just use something, anything, to hold the bottle from falling over while you work.
When i bleed i also use a stick, shower curtain rod, or some other device to hold the brake pedal down while i run around opening and closing brake valves (the bleeding kit with its hose and reservoir etc. is only a safety for me). It's awkward to do this but it works.

[ilyaphd10]

Everyone, thanks so much for your input. I am strongly inclining to let my loacl mechanic to inspect everything including master cylinder and flush the brakes. He said he will do power flush for 49.99 which seems like a reasonable price. Compare to the dealer anyways. I will keep the detailed recipe kindly provided by catric69 (THANKS A LOT) for my own reference. I will keep you guys updated.

P.S. My wife's Highlander 2003 brakes respond crisp and nice. I wonder. At first i thought it is specific to the car, now i suspect that camry may have some underlying problem.

[islandboy57]

The 5th gen Camry has a notoriously "soft" brake pedal but if it's gotten worse, I think it's good to flush the brake fluid out and see how it is after that before you pursue other options like whether or not something is wrong. My coworker's '02 Camry and my aunt's '00 LS400 have even softer brake pedal feel than my '05 Camry and I haven't ever flushed my brake fluid - which I intend on doing sometime soon, I know I'm well overdue.

Like you though, I've never had a problem with coming to a stop but I'd prefer a firmer feel to it.

[fenixus]

hi,

just wanted to drop in my 2 cents. i was having similar trouble in past with brakes on my '00 Solara (like gen4 camry) and can definitely assure you that old brake fluid can and will make this soft feeling on brake pedal.

It's said that brake fluid looses its abilities by allowing moisture from air (brake fluid is hygroscopic) to get mixed with fluid. this moisture becomes water in your fluid. they say that with each year the brake fluid gets 1% of water (moisture from air) into it.

I had 9 year old fluid (brown color) which means i had close to 10% of water in fluid, meaning whenever I was pressing on brakes this water was becoming a steam pocket (pedal softness). flush the brakes. it's easy to do on your own if you have access to a vacuum pump like MittyVac makes and some transparent rubber hoses.

It's good to flush brake fluid every 2 years at least to keep the brakes strong. I used Valvoline DOT3&4 and it's great! with new brake pads (i kept old rotors) my brakes can make the car to stop on dime if i slam the pedal.
rear drums adjustment is also a good idea (you've done it already).

one more thing. you can also make sure that throttle valve in Throttle Body stays in closed fully position when acceleration pedal is up (not being depressed).
on one occasion I adjusted that throttle cable wrongly letting the valve stay a bit open at idle which was causing the car to pull forward at idle - i had to press on brakes really deeply to keep the car standing still at stop lights.

good luck!

[JohnGD]

Well Toyota brake systems don't win awards. But if you think you need more force to stop than before, then you should have it looked at. Stopping power means your life.

The first is excessive pad-rotor (shoe-drum) clearance. But if that's correct, then besides hydraulics also check rubber brake hose swell. There seem to be more cheap parts going into these cars in recent years.

Did the brakes start to engage with little pedal travel? Like 1/2-1" (I can't really tell the small distance with my foot BTW). You should feel brakes start to engage with little travel.

If you need to go further down to feel any effect, then your primary piston/circuit may not be putting out enough pressure. With engine off and vacuum depleted, lightly step on the brake pedal. Does it sink slowly towards the floor? If so the master cylinder may be defective.

If you get a hard pedal when the engine is off and soft when the engine is on, then there might be air in the secondary ABS pressure relieving circuit.

Originally Posted by ilyaphd10

Hello all, I have 2003 camry, original ownership. got 70k on it. Changed front pads and rotos 1.5-2 years ago. Never changed rear brakes. I always had kind of soft feeling of the brake pedal but was not concerned. The car was braking fine. Recently, the pedal path seem to get bigger. meaning i need to push it more and more. Last night I checked and here is the result: front: 20-30% wear estimated, rotors in great shape (brembos rock). Rear: drums in great shape, shoes, maybe 40-50% worn. Adjusted and cleaned shoes so that the hand brake is nice and tight. Bled the brakes a bit to check for air, nothing. Although I may add that when gas pedal pushed, brake fluid was not squirting out rather oozing out. Not sure if this is normal. Have not bled enough brakes to tell. The break pedal is still soft and requires some effort to stop the car although tried emergency type of braking on dry road, car stops no problem no pull anywhere.

Am I imagining things? or do i need to investigate this more and it is a serious problem. Anyone got ideas?

[gdanaher]

Given the age of the car, I would not overlook the possibility that the master cylinder is failing or has failed on one circuit. This would essentially produce the symptoms you have described. If bleeding the fluid fails to fix the problem, I would consider finding a rebuilt master cylinder or if you know what to do, get a kit and do the rebuild yourself on the bench. Then again flush and see how it feels.