Ethanol & Throttle - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums


» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
Advertisement
Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums > Toyota Passenger and Sports Car Forums > Camry and Solara Forum > 5th & 6th Generation (2002-2006 & 2007-2011)

5th & 6th Generation (2002-2006 & 2007-2011) Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 2002-2006 & 2007-2011 Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving America's favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.

ToyotaNation.com is the premier Toyota Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-11-2010, 03:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
New TN User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View sixtyone's Photo Gallery
Ethanol & Throttle

When ethanol evaporates, it leaves a residue of varnish and other deposits. Does the engine design of the Camry call for ethanol to pass through the throttle body? If so could the ethanol be increasing the stickiness of the throttle?
sixtyone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-11-2010, 05:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: league city, tx
Posts: 895
Thanks: 0
Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View hossmaster's Photo Gallery
no the fuel does not flow through the throttle body. Your car has fuel injectors, one for each cylinder. Carbon can build up on the butterfly of the throttle body and cause it to be sticky. Do a little reading on how modern engines work.
hossmaster is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-11-2010, 07:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
New TN User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View sixtyone's Photo Gallery
Before I got my 2007 Camry, I owned two cars. One was a 1972 Ford Mustang and the other was a 1988 Ford Taurus. I freely admit that I am behind on how modern automobiles work. I know about fuel injection and that most of the fuel goes initially through the injectors. I have been reading up. The design recirculates some of the unburned combustion gases to improve the gas milage but exactly where these gases reenter the system wasn't clear.
sixtyone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-11-2010, 08:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 532
Gameroom cash: $311365
Thanks: 0
Thanked 43 Times in 38 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View Frodo65's Photo Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtyone View Post
When ethanol evaporates, it leaves a residue of varnish and other deposits. Does the engine design of the Camry call for ethanol to pass through the throttle body? If so could the ethanol be increasing the stickiness of the throttle?
While ethanol may decompose (or polymerize) to form varnish, and may even be a solvent for varnish-producing substances, it doesn't, by itself, leave a varnish deposit. There are many other components in gasoline that are far more contributing to deposits - and additives to control them to a manageable levels. Quick 'gumming up' of the throttle is likely a symptom of fuel with insufficient detergent additive package.

As to your second post - yes, every modern car employs EGR (in one way or another) to control NOx emissions The exhaust gases are metered via the EGR valve and go into the intake manifold, well downstream of the throttle body.
Frodo65 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-12-2010, 07:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
Fixed it!!!
 
mxsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 44
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View mxsmith's Photo Gallery
Egr
mxsmith is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-13-2010, 05:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: gatineau
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View warpedrotor's Photo Gallery
How does the throttle body get dirty then? If the egr gases enter well downstream there should be nothing but clean filtered air before that, I don't get it,
warpedrotor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-13-2010, 05:40 PM   #7 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 532
Gameroom cash: $311365
Thanks: 0
Thanked 43 Times in 38 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View Frodo65's Photo Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpedrotor View Post
How does the throttle body get dirty then? If the egr gases enter well downstream there should be nothing but clean filtered air before that, I don't get it,
A number of mechanisms contribute:
  1. Engine shut-down leaves the entire intake full of volatile hydrocarbons (OK, maybe not full, but certainly containing a bunch) coupled with considerable heat. This causes breakdown of the same, and deposits to the 'cool' surfaces.
  2. Do realize that air isn't just flowing one way in the intake; it's bouncing back and forth; the reason intake runners are a specific length (or can be varied in effective length) is to take advantage of that. This means that while the engine is running, the flow inside the intake manifold is back-and-forth, including all the way against the throttle. This means that the manifold (and the back surface of the throttle body) is exposed to the same hydrocarbon soup.
  3. Also realize that the air filter is not 100% - particles of small size get through. Coupled with sticky coating of the hydrocarbon soup, they can build up.
Counteracting all of the above are coatings of the intake parts, and fuel detergent additives. They do a decent, but imperfect job. The intake track cleaning takes care of the (relatively small) part the fuel additives miss. It also explains why different folks have different degree of trouble with deposits - some fuels aren't as effective at controlling deposits as others, and some drive cycles (short start/stop ) also contribute.
Frodo65 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-13-2010, 06:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: gatineau
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View warpedrotor's Photo Gallery
Thanks for the info.
warpedrotor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-14-2010, 11:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
Fixed it!!!
 
mxsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 44
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View mxsmith's Photo Gallery
On the V6 the EGR valve connects to the intake manifold right next to the throttle body.
mxsmith is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-14-2010, 05:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: gatineau
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View warpedrotor's Photo Gallery
So I guess there's no PCV with associated gases to contributing to this mix? Used to be a source of crud at the base of the carburetors on old V-8s I used to work on.
warpedrotor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-14-2010, 06:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 532
Gameroom cash: $311365
Thanks: 0
Thanked 43 Times in 38 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View Frodo65's Photo Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpedrotor View Post
So I guess there's no PCV with associated gases to contributing to this mix? Used to be a source of crud at the base of the carburetors on old V-8s I used to work on.
Yes, there is PCV - but the amount of blow-by is much less in a healthy modern motor than it was 'back in the day' with the old stink-pots.

And frankly, one of the biggest advantages is having the old carbs go away - they had lousy cold-start mixture control, as well as cylinder-to-cylinder mixture variation that contributed to crud going into the crankcase. I remember the old cast-in-manifold Ford 6's having to run 2 or 3 different plugs to work around the too-rich and too-lean cylinders... Sometimes the best thing about the old days is that they're gone.
Frodo65 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-14-2010, 09:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: gatineau
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View warpedrotor's Photo Gallery
Agreed, my Camry has about the same usable (needed) power as my last old v-8 had with an engine half the size using 45% less fuel without flooding or hesitating or stalling. I'm not too nostalgic either..
warpedrotor is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-14-2010, 10:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
Official TN Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Columbus,Nebraska
Posts: 915
Gameroom cash: $363200
Thanks: 643
Thanked 94 Times in 89 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View Donald E. George's Photo Gallery
Ethanol use

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtyone View Post
When ethanol evaporates, it leaves a residue of varnish and other deposits. Does the engine design of the Camry call for ethanol to pass through the throttle body? If so could the ethanol be increasing the stickiness of the throttle?
I have a 2004 Camry and use E-10 Sinclair 89octane in a V-6.
I don't know what ethanol blend you are using [probably E-10 which is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline] but it doesn't matter. Only air passes through the throttle body. The fuel is injected by each injector at each intake valve where it mixes with the incoming air. If you use a good air filter and change it every year,you shouldn't get any kind of deposits at all in the throttle body. Ethanol is almost 100% pure grain alcohol. They make about a 100 million gallons of it a year six blocks from where I live. Grain alcohol, like rubbing alcohol , evaporates without leaving any residue at all. Try adding Chevron Techron to a full tank of gas every 3000 miles or so to keep the injectors clean.A sticking throttle is a whole new subject.
Donald E. George is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2010, 06:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
Fixed it!!!
 
mxsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 44
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View mxsmith's Photo Gallery
There is one. on the V6 it's located on the passenger side of the engine compartment.
mxsmith is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2010, 07:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
Dogging It
 
judge34411's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 955
Gameroom cash: $116990
Thanks: 14
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
Lifetime Supreme Member
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
View judge34411's Photo Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by hossmaster View Post
no the fuel does not flow through the throttle body. Your car has fuel injectors, one for each cylinder. Carbon can build up on the butterfly of the throttle body and cause it to be sticky. Do a little reading on how modern engines work.
+1 this answers it all. An keep a clean filter for the MAF sensor good.
__________________
judge34411 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums > Toyota Passenger and Sports Car Forums > Camry and Solara Forum > 5th & 6th Generation (2002-2006 & 2007-2011)

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:37 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
ToyotaNation.com is an independent Toyota/Lexus enthusiast website. ToyotaNation.com is not sponsored by or in any way affiliated with Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc. The Toyota, Lexus and Scion names and logos are trademarks owned by Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc.