5th & 6th Generation (2002-2006 & 2007-2011)Toyota Camry Discussion for years: 2002-2006 & 2007-2011
Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving America's favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.
Hello - First time poster here. I have an '02 camry 4 cyl/auto with used 4 cyl '09 engine (hosed up the original engine at 180M miles). Had the install done at an independent shop - my son has the car in FL and I am in OH so have only talked to them on the phone (seem like knoweldgable, nice people but not being able to put my eyes on the situation is hard). Consistent miss on cylinder 2 which the shop can't figure out - I think they are doing what they can. MIL (check engine light) on all the time. Very noticable miss at idle and periodically stalls out under acceleration. Missing gets worse as it is driven with some MIL flashing at times (following slight acceleration). Suggestions? Compatability of '02 ECU with '09 engine? Are dealership diagnostics superior to non-Toyota CAN OBD2 scanners for this type of an issue?
Transmission and on-board computer not replaced - they are the original units. Transmission fluid changed when engine replaced. The mechanic has indicated that the '02 computer is compatible with the '09 engine but, given the issues I am having, I was looking for confirmation.
I am looking at other potential causes. All four coils have been replaced new. Problem seems to be getting worse and worsens as you drive it - severe stumble upon acceleration that has recently resulted in intermittant flashing of MIL. Plan to investigate fuel pressure/pump and MAF sensor based on symptoms.
were the coils that were put in for an 02 or an 09? i just did a quick search on rock auto and coils for an 09 are a different part#
all i can say is, even though it is the "same" engine (2azfe) there could be very small differences like federal or california emmisions, spark plugs, timing, and alot of other things...... i know toyota made changes over the years to that engine, but sadly im not sure what exactly
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Black 2006 Camry SE 2azfe automagic - daily driver
White 1987 VW Fox 2-door wagon 2.0 3A 8V 5 speed - because reliability is boring
1. I think I would want to have the engine computer that goes with that engine.
2. Check compression. You have an engine out of a wrecked car. There might be a mechanical problem and low compression causing the miss.
3. Replace the one spark plug.
4. Verify the fuel injection is ok.
If compression is good, the coils have been replaced, and swapped around, and the plug is new, it gets back to the computer because there really isn't anything else left to cause the failure. Find another used computer and swap out to see if it cures the problem.
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2007 V6 Camry LE, Built TMMK 27 September 06
"People who think they know it all are particularly irritating to those of us who do."
that motor will never run properly unless it has an 09 ECU... the emissions controls and everything are completely different, obviously because its gotten more strict.
i'd say whoever sold you that 09 motor was taking you for a ride.. like somebody said, even though its the "same 2az-fe", doesn't mean it IS the same...
Some new info - had my son take the car to auto parts store and check the stored codes - P0300 (multi-cylinder misfire), P0301 (cyl #1 mis-fire), P0302 (cyl #2 misfire), P0303 (cyl #3 misfire), P1300 (Ign System Malfunction - #1 coil/igniter circuit fault). The shop had said it was #2 cyl so maybe this is interesting......
Went down to the NAPA store and checked on the difference in the part numbers for the '02 coil (IC574) and the '09 coil (IC575)....(thx fatngs). They did not know the different but gave me 800# for Echlin which makes the coils. Called them, talked to Richard (a polite young man) who did his best but could not tell me the diffence in specs between the two coils - said he would have to contact his vendor to go further.
Called the Dealership and spoke to a guy in parts (seemed not all that knowledgable) who told me that the multiple ECM's are applicable to a model year and you needed the serial number to figure it out. Did not know about difference in coils. He suggested that I talk to guy in Service who seemed knowledgable and listened to my sad story. He did not know the difference in the specs on the coils and did not have the docs to figure it out. His opinion - although he did not know for sure, the difference in the coil and the diffence in the ECM would not like cause this problem.
Calling the shop now - any suggestions appreciated....
Some new info - had my son take the car to auto parts store and check the stored codes - P0300 (multi-cylinder misfire), P0301 (cyl #1 mis-fire), P0302 (cyl #2 misfire), P0303 (cyl #3 misfire), P1300 (Ign System Malfunction - #1 coil/igniter circuit fault). The shop had said it was #2 cyl so maybe this is interesting......
Went down to the NAPA store and checked on the difference in the part numbers for the '02 coil (IC574) and the '09 coil (IC575)....(thx fatngs). They did not know the different but gave me 800# for Echlin which makes the coils. Called them, talked to Richard (a polite young man) who did his best but could not tell me the diffence in specs between the two coils - said he would have to contact his vendor to go further.
Called the Dealership and spoke to a guy in parts (seemed not all that knowledgable) who told me that the multiple ECM's are applicable to a model year and you needed the serial number to figure it out. Did not know about difference in coils. He suggested that I talk to guy in Service who seemed knowledgable and listened to my sad story. He did not know the difference in the specs on the coils and did not have the docs to figure it out. His opinion - although he did not know for sure, the difference in the coil and the diffence in the ECM would not like cause this problem.
Calling the shop now - any suggestions appreciated....
thx,
John
Any ideas where the accessories came from (e.g. manifold, injectors, sensors, coils, etc.? What about things like O2 sensors?
If they replaced only the engine, and kept the original accessories, I'd take a look as silly things like vacuum leaks - which could show up as misfires, but would also show as lean fuel trim. The plastic manifolds don't age all that gracefully, and it's quite possible to tweak one during an install and have it develop a crack. Ditto on the air intake tube downstream of the MAF.
As others stated, make sure the engine is in good mechanical shape - with good compression, cam timing, etc. Then check obvious things like bad injectors, bad coils, bad wires, etc.
I talked to the shop owner at length - he is directing the work but not doing it himself. We went through what they have done but his recollection of details are sketchy as they have touched the car so many times. But here is what he said with "?" designating the facts that seemed sketchy....
Compression good in all 4 cylinders - checked multiple times before & after mis-fire began.
New crankshaft sensor and cam sensor(?) swapped in & out with no effect.
Fuel injectors were from old engine. Multiple brands of new fuel injectors swapped in & out with no effect.
O2 sensors were from original engine. New upstream O2 sensor swapped in & out with no effect.
New coils now in engine (& all the ones swapped in & out) were for 2002 engine to stay consistent with the ECM.
Fuel pressure checked (?). "Would be the first thing they would do and must have been OK."
Variable Timing Sensor on '02 engine was melted and the one on the '09 engine was broken, New Variable Timing Sensor installed. New wiring harness installed to Variable Timing Sensor as one on car was melted.
Wires to coils & injectors have not been replaced (original with car) but have been succesfully noid tested .
Also - my son corrected me - the engine actually ran OK for about a month (rather than a week) after the install was complete. When the MIL first came on, there was no apparent misfire, now it is very apparent in the way the engine runs. He took it back to the shop when the MIL came on and they swapped a new upstream O2 sensor in & out to no effect......things have gone downhill from there.
Did anyone look at the wires that power the coils? If something got hot enough to melt in one location there might be a bad connector or worn wire here.
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2007 V6 Camry LE, Built TMMK 27 September 06
"People who think they know it all are particularly irritating to those of us who do."
First of all, let me thank all that have offered comments - I appreciate it.....
Regarding the wires leading to the coils, I asked the same question. I asked if the wiring to the coils or the injectors could have been damaged. Was told that they were tested with "noids" which I think are small individual lights that you hook up the wiring harness which light up when you have signal through the wires telling the injectors to fire. I am not sure that you do this for coils but have read about it for injectors (comments?). The shop's owner told me that he thought the wires (both injector and coil) were good because of this testing.
Also - I am concerned about the heat. That old engine apparently got real hot before it gave up the ghost. So I think that the wires could have been damaged - maybe not to the point of failing but compromisted. I had some discussion with the owner about the ECM being affected but I think it is located under the glove compartment, on the other side of the firewall which would keep it out of harms way.....comments?
Yeah - I'd be curious as to the root cause of the variable timing sensor harness 'being melted', and whatever caused it to melt could/did take out some other components (like the ECU).
Engines won't get hot enough to melt wiring just because they overheat - the thing is likely to fail (seize) long before the surface of the block got hot enough to melt wiring (esp. in a harness). The only thing I've seen melting wires is an electrical overload or a fire (like from fuel leak).
Sorry that I haven't posted add'l info - have been out of town. I am heading down to my son's house on Saturday and will be taking a look at the car & finallly getting a chance to talk to the mechanic face to face. I will post add'l info this coming week.
Happy Easter! I drove the car last night when I got to FL. I was pleasently surprised that it ran good at start-up (MIL on continuous). Drove it on the highway for ~12 miles and then the severe missing/stumble/stalling upon acceleration started to occur. My son explained that this is what always happens - normally after he drives it ~16 miles on the same road (seems to me to be amazingly consistent). Have a pc based scanner that allows us to ID codes, clear them and monitor the PID's. It seemed to be throwing the P1300 code first. Could this severe issue be happening because the engine is going into "limp mode?" Don't really know what that is but the dealership srvc mgr metioned it. Plan to check plugs, wires today and will post add'l info.
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