About Oil and Gas for 2005 Camry V6

[Wraith]

On stock motors ... I would change over after 3000miles, from synthentic... But on built motors I would change it over 1500miles.

Toysrme: what the hell you talking about running it up to 3rd gen ?!?!? You sounds like your the type that would build a motor and break it in on the dyno ... great idea though, you wonder why people with built motors blow it up...

[Toysrme]

Thanks for the PM wraith. I am from the "new school" of open thinking.

The entire break-in process is for nothing but the piston ring seals. If the ring is hot enough during the first few miles of engine break in, it will seal higher, resulting in more perofmrance, less oil loss and less wear.

Think about it. The first thing every Japanese engine maker from a sportbike to a car will do when the engine is in the car. It's run at it's TOP RPM back and forth for between 5-15min. Honda uses a 15min revline -part throttle-revline break-in on nearly all of it's vehicle factory engine's(both bike and car). Why do you think you never see a Honda broken down anywhere near it's warrenty? Because you can damn well bet if it's going to die, it'll be before it rolls out of the plant!!!

How do the best engine tuners I know in Birmingham break in create engines? They put them on their dyno and do a few idle-50% runs, then idle the motor to cool off. Then some idle-75% runs, more cooling off and end the break-in with some idle-WOT runs.
Once it's cooled off it's ready to go.


Every R/C engine I've owned (I've had dozens of all types, and world markets) ringed (like a normal engine) and ringless ABC, or ABN (for higher performance) both 2-stroke & 4-stroke glow, and 4-stroke gas ALL give the same general break-ins. NOT A SINGLE BOOK I'VE READ deviates from the basic outline of cranking the motor at 1/3 throttle, letting it warm up for a few oz of fuel (or up to 5 min) and then blasting to WOT and setting the high-speed needle. Then you go back and set the idle during the first cooling-off period.

It sounds backwards to originally get WOT before idle, but the builders are right!
More performance & reliability come from harder break-ins.


You can also think about it like this. What "parts" in the engine have to be broken in? Everything but the piston rings are skimming on a thin layer of oil. If they ever touch that's very very bad. The rings have to bed into the cylinder wall before the honing wears off. Otherwise you get a poor seal.

If the people that made the engine can't break it before it's out of the plant, how can we break them 50 miles out of the plant???

At this point I'm just rambling on heh.

[Mikey21]

This is a MUST READ ARTICLE about engine break-in!!!


Motoman Engine Break-in Secret


Remember most of what he's talking about is seating of the piston rings. I pretty much follow what he explains except for the 20 mile first oil change, which I will do from now on. Hhhmmm, I think my engine had more the 20 when I got it. I guess the next one I'll have to drive it straight from the sales guy to the service center.


.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Mikey21

This is a MUST READ ARTICLE about engine break-in!!!


Motoman Engine Break-in Secret


Remember most of what he's talking about is seating of the piston rings. I pretty much follow what he explains except for the 20 mile first oil change, which I will do from now on. Hhhmmm, I think my engine had more the 20 when I got it. I guess the next one I'll have to drive it straight from the sales guy to the service center.


.

You go on and do that ... But I wouldnt take any chances on my motor...

[Pineapple]

It does sounds iffy on 20 mile break in. Its like using a hammer and screw driver to make it smooth. High impact on rough surface will take out big chunk of material. On my rebuild engine, the first 300km was rough. The engine doesn't want to rev at all. Only after 300-400km it start to free up. I keep running it below 1/2 throttle and under 4000rpm. Now I'm taking it higher and punch a few times everyday.

[Mikey21]

Originally Posted by Pineapple

It does sounds iffy on 20 mile break in. Its like using a hammer and screw driver to make it smooth. High impact on rough surface will take out big chunk of material. On my rebuild engine, the first 300km was rough. The engine doesn't want to rev at all. Only after 300-400km it start to free up. I keep running it below 1/2 throttle and under 4000rpm. Now I'm taking it higher and punch a few times everyday.

In a nutshell this is what the dude was trying to say:

1. The new style wet honing machines leave a very fine cross hatch pattern on the cylinder walls, compared to the old style machines.

2. If you're running the engine hard or soft, it's only a matter time before that fine cross hatch pattern is worn off of the cylinder walls.

3. That fine cross hatch pattern is the fine abrasive used to seat the piston rings.

4. By running the engine harder, it exerts more cylinder pressure to the backside of the piston ring. Thus the piston ring is forced harder against the fine cross hatch pattern.

5. The abrasive cross hatch pattern wears the piston ring rapidly due to the increased pressure behind the ring, thus fitting the ring perfectly to the bore. Ergo perfect seal.

6. Once the crosshatch pattern is worn off the ability to seat the rings properly is gone!





Makes perfectly good sense to me.

In the old days they used to have boring machines that left a really abrasive finished surface on the cylinder walls. Thus they used a really hard faced piston ring, often chromed. It took a hell of a long time to wear the boring marks smooth, that's where the old school ideas of breaking an engine come from. They always said to take it easy for the first 2,000 miles or so. Another one was to take a long cross-country trip.

That was then, this is now. Now they use honing machines to true the cylinders and even finer honing stones for the final finish. The honing machines spin the hones while lubricant is sprayed in the bore, at the same time the hone is moved in and out at a high speed. They also use head boring plates to simulate the torque applied by the bolting of the head to the block. So a finer finish on the cylinder wall eliminated the need of a hard faced piston ring. Which in the long run was really bad for the cylinder wall. They now incorporated a softer faced piston ring, often with a microscopically poroused face.

So I've known about the old school way and the new school way because it's been around for atleast 25 years. BUT, this is the first I've heard about this method of rapidly seating the rings to the bore (thanks toysrme for opening my eyes). And it makes perfect sense to me. With the limited time you have to seat the rings this method seems totally sound. By the time a few thousand miles roll around there will be nothing to abrade the piston ring. And as the article mentions, piston ring spring pressure is not what seals the ring to the bore. It's the actual cylinder pressure that is directed to the backside of the piston ring which forces it out against the cylinder that seals it. So with a limited window of time, applying the highest available pressure into the cylinder to seat the rings at earliest possible time makes perfectly good sense. I'm sold. For me it's not a big change. Only the 20 mile oil change is different. As far as piston seating, I wasn't too worried about it because I knew the cars now a days used moly rings. I drove my car pretty hard from the get go. I just assume it would take about 3,000 miles to be sure the rings were perfectly seated to the bore. From now on I'll drive my car intentionally hard when brand new.

[Toysrme]

FYI that's how I ported my heads. I love motoman. I've thought he was really smart for a long time b/c I've seen some of his "concepts" in action. Where the guys from South America went and did 80% dia. I did the full 60%. I'll write that up before christmass too.

[Toysrme]

I think it's chancy to not do a quick and rough break-in. To me it's the other way around.

Piston rings is one thing, but when you take a ringless R/C motor using ABC or ABN construtions. The cylinder itself is shaped like a funnel. It's actually too small for the piston to fit in at the top. As soon as the motor heats up, the metal expands and it's the most perfect seal you can imagine.

Let alone all R/C engine's break in roughly the same way. You guys can decide for yourselfs if you want to let engines with a .1" through 1.8" diameter piston be relevant for your motors, but I've worked on them so much it's the same thing. Minus the ass load of burnt methanol and oil. mmmm the smell of burnt methanol and oil! Tree huggers hate me. :'( Hey! It's good mosqueto control! LoL! Notice we have a lot of standing water at our 30acre flying field and never a single mosqueto!

[Pineapple]

At static, the piston can do 200+PSI on compression. Under the power cycle, it'll be much more. Now with the engine running 3000RPM, the speed of the ring moving up and down the bore is very fast. The wearing of the ring is like polishing it with the honed pattern. The less material you remove at a time, the better the finish. The harder you hit the material with the abrisive, the bigger chunk will come out. Its due to elasticity of the material. You hit it slow it'll have time to stretch and you remove only the material you need. You hit it fast the material will break at the weakes point and you have no control where it gonna break, ie most like a bigger piece come off leaving a pit in the material. For best fit and finish, you never force the abursive onto the material. Fast moving abursive with light force always give the best finish. Ask any polisher and machinist.
So we can let the engine rev but not under heavy load.
The hone pattren will wear out like sand paper. You sand it lightly, it'll last longer. You sand it hard, you'll leave deep groves and even push the sand into the material. The abursive is always harder then the material you trying to polish. So it'll be pretty bad to have the particle stuck on the piston ring and wearing out the bore.
I don't know how they come up with that 20 miles "window". Someone toke the engine apart and check it every 5 miles with a surface roughness tester?

[spyman]

I have broken in many motorcycle race engines in the past, I noticed everything seated
properly when I did the 50 % , 75 % 100% throttle dyno runs then change the oil.
I know with my 02 Camry I split up the first 1000 KM in three segment, first 300 km
I kept the motor under 3000 rpm, the next 500 km I kept the motor under 4000 rpm and the last 200 I would floor it all the way to redline whenever possible. After that
I changed the oil and the car has run perfectly ever since (currently 35,000 km). I use nothing but mobil1 SYnthetic oil and 91-97 octane gas. A full tank in the city gets me about 400 km, on the highway almost 600.


NOw where is that Ben from SPG for that turbo kit!!!!!!!!!!!!



check my site:

http://www.cardomain.com/id/spyman777

[ian721]

From motoman:

So why do all the owner's manuals say to take it easy for the first
thousand miles ???

This is a good question ...

Yet he provides no answer, not even a guess. Does motoman knows more about engine break-in than the army of engineers at Toyota who have built over 50 million cars? Unlikely.

BTW, didn't someone earlier in this thread say that Honda does this to their cars in the factory? If that's so (and I don't know if it is), why do it again? (Maybe that was some other thread. But still, don't they do some kind of break-in/testing of the motor at the factory?)

[Toysrme]

Do Toyota and Yamaha (who has done much engine design and parts supplying work for Toyota in the past) rev the piss out of their own motors during that "go easy break-in" You betcha.



Read the website. There are pleant of answers to your questions ian.

[Toysrme]

Pineapple - The guy has been in professional motorcycle racing for over a decade and done well at it.
I'm sure he has broken track engines down at 5 mile intervals.

[ian721]

Are you saying they do rev the piss out of the engines in the factory before they're sold? If so, isn't that enough? And I read the entire page and no, I didn't see any explanation for why ALL the car manufacturers recommend the type of break in that they do. I could have missed it though, in which case I'd still like to know why the engineers at Toyota -- who build some of the most reliable cars in the world -- could be wrong on this important issue.

I'm sorry, I just find it hard to believe that motoman knows more than Toyota about how to break in a newly purchased Camry, that's all.