2004 Camry SE I4 5MT - Slight stumble/miss when cold - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

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post #1 of 19 Old 02-15-2017, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
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2004 Camry SE I4 5MT - Slight stumble/miss when cold

**Second time typing this out, first time browser stop responding and I lost 30 minutes of typing, UGHHHWERKNQFQWKNFQWEIFN**

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update: 2/18/2017 : If I do not update this, then the problem is solved. Isolated issue to a intermittent coil pack issue with cylinder 3. I originally had the defected coil pack on 3 as I got a P0303 ONCE and then moved to 4 to troubleshoot (clear codes and retest) and see if it would throw a code on that cylinder, which it didn't for 5 days of trying to force it. No codes were thrown even with obvious idle and accelerating issues in the lower RPM band. Used a test coil from a 2007-2009 Camry and issue *appears* to have gone away. Will drive a few days with this test coil and in the mean time will order new coils.
SIDENOTE: Coils from the newer 2AZFE engine will NOT fit completely right. See below!



Update: 2/21/2017 : No issues at all since 150 miles driven! No more sputtering or surging. So far so good with the test coil. Need to order new set of coils though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hey All,

Wanted your opinion on what could be going on. Been noticing my car having a slight stumble/miss when started cold either first thing in the morning or when I finish work. Car sits about 10hr at work before I head home in the evening.

----------Feb 9-12
-There was a rain storm last week Feb 10-11. Feb 9 we had pretty cool weather in the low 60s.
-I ran the gas in the car till the light came on. Got about 450Miles in this tank. Got 31MPG.
-Since Costco closed, I drove home with the fuel light on. No more than 10 miles since light went on when I filled up gas on Monday
----------Feb 13 (Monday)
-Started the car in the morning. The car started and had a random miss/stumble. No patterns to this. It wouldn't stumble when pressing the gas, but when idling it was noticeable. Also when trying to make a U turn in my road in 2nd gear (RPM at 1,000 ish), engine would stumble and miss very noticeably.
-I thought it might had been because I had low gas, although done this several times w/o issues. Filled up gas at Costco about a 10 minute drive. No issues afterwards. Went to work fine.
-After work, started the car. The car still had a slight random miss/stumble. Again more noticeable when there was some engine low at the lower RPM range (2K or less). Drove home 1hr driving w/o issue and issue went away after about 20 minutes of driving.
-Once driving from initial start, the stumbling at idle would not occur and I could only get the stumbling to occur when lugging the engine a bit.
-Went out later that night. Car sat for about 4hr so it wasn't completely cold. No idling/or stumble issues.
-Throughout the day, no CEL or pending codes per my ODB II reader. STFT and LTFT all was under 10%.
---------Feb14 (Tuesday)
-Weather was dry
-Start the car in the morning. Car started and still had a random noticeable stumble/miss, but not as bad as Monday. Wouldn't seem to stumble when giving gas, but would still stumble when engine load while apply at lower RPM every few seconds.
-After work, same thing as on Monday.
-Once driving from initial start, the stumbling at idle would not occur and I could only get the stumbling to occur when lugging the engine a bit.
-Throughout the day, no CEL or pending codes per my ODB II reader. STFT and LTFT all was under 10%.
-Engine would miss noticeably especially when lugging the engine (i.e. 5th gear at 35MPH which RPMs are in the mid 1.5K)
---------Feb15 (Today)
-Weather was a bit wet. Rained/drizzled during the night
-Start the car in the morning. Car started and had a random stumble/miss. Seem to be the worst of the last two days. Wouldn't stumble when given gas, but it stumbled/missed more harsher when lugging the engine (i.e. 4rd gear at say 20-25mph, lower RPM range). Still random but would happen more often and became almost like a consistent rumble when lugging.
-I guess because I was able to make the engine miss/stumble more so, I got a PENDING code for P0303 - Cylinder 3 Misfire. No other codes and the CEL did not illuminate.
-As again, after driving on the freeway to work, the stumbling would go away/not able to reproduce it after driving 10-15 minutes
-Throughout the drive to work, STFT and LTFT all was under 10%.



Things to do next
-Inspect the spark plugs and swap the coils around to see if issue 'moves'. Possible weak/failing coil pack?

Maintenance note:
-Previous owner had Goodyear replace 4 spark plugs and 4 coil packs a few years ago for a blinking CEL for engine misfire/idle issue. I can get the exact date and miles. IIRC it was bout 40K miles ago. Spark plugs were NGK (not sure what type) and unknown coil packs as they are unlabeled.




Let me know what you all think!


Thank you!!

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
'04 Camry SE I4 5SPD 167K

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post #2 of 19 Old 02-15-2017, 12:00 PM
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kingdom, how long have you owned this car? has the big maintenance stuff been done in a timely manner?

is rain/dampness the common denominator in this?

dunno your setup so disregard/substitute where applicable:
disto/rotor/coil/cop/wires/boots/plugs/igniter/connections.

assuming there's no cel's or pending codes that might point to which cylinder is causing the miss, then disconnect coil packs at the harness connection (or pull the plug wires if you have those), one by one for a cylinder drop test to find the weak cylinder.

when found, pull plug, and swap coil pack to narrow it down.
might be able to see sparking under the hood in the dark garage at night.

tony

1994 Camry, 1MZ-FE, A541E
2001 Sienna, 1MZ-FE, A541E
2006 Camry, 2AZ-FE, U250E
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post #3 of 19 Old 02-15-2017, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcgowaw View Post
kingdom, how long have you owned this car? has the big maintenance stuff been done in a timely manner?

is rain/dampness the common denominator in this?

dunno your setup so disregard/substitute where applicable:
disto/rotor/coil/cop/wires/boots/plugs/igniter/connections.

assuming there's no cel's or pending codes that might point to which cylinder is causing the miss, then disconnect coil packs at the harness connection (or pull the plug wires if you have those), one by one for a cylinder drop test to find the weak cylinder.

when found, pull plug, and swap coil pack to narrow it down.
might be able to see sparking under the hood in the dark garage at night.

tony
Almost a year.

Did all the fluids within the last 10 months. Brake fluid, power steering, gear oil, coolant, etc.
Replaced alternator and radiator fans as well. Suspecting AC condenser is leaking now though.
Previous owner had 90% of all service records from new. They had to service car on regular basis because land lord did not like to have unsightly driveways from leaks.

It could be rain/moisture, so thats what I'm thinking it could be the coil pack. Again, issue doesn't seem to occur once it is running for awhile. Suspect cylinder is 3 based off the pending code.

Can a coil pack be failing but not completely bad? I understood with coil packs it either works or doesn't work...none of this 'semi working' sort of deal.

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
'04 Camry SE I4 5SPD 167K
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post #4 of 19 Old 02-15-2017, 02:12 PM
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if coil on plug, then yes, cyl 3 pack could be getting weak.
coils/transformers can go bad over time with heat build up and constant build up from 12v to 20k volts several times a minute.

rain/moisture arcing is definitely a possibility and then things dry out as the engine heats up.

switch the pack and plug with a neighbor pack and plug and see if the problem moves.

with the engine hot and the miss temporarily gone, sprinkle some water on the coil packs in the garage and see if it comes back.

if the miss don't move to the replaced cylinder, then would you happen to know if the tsb for head gasket helicoil repair was done by the po or not? if not, then you might want to do a leakdown test.

could also be a weak driver in the ecu/ecm/pcm but a pretty remote possibility on this new a car.

let us know what you find.
tony

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2001 Sienna, 1MZ-FE, A541E
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Originally Posted by mcgowaw View Post
if coil on plug, then yes, cyl 3 pack could be getting weak.
coils/transformers can go bad over time with heat build up and constant build up from 12v to 20k volts several times a minute.

rain/moisture arcing is definitely a possibility and then things dry out as the engine heats up.

switch the pack and plug with a neighbor pack and plug and see if the problem moves.

with the engine hot and the miss temporarily gone, sprinkle some water on the coil packs in the garage and see if it comes back.

if the miss don't move to the replaced cylinder, then would you happen to know if the tsb for head gasket helicoil repair was done by the po or not? if not, then you might want to do a leakdown test.

could also be a weak driver in the ecu/ecm/pcm but a pretty remote possibility on this new a car.

let us know what you find.
tony
Thanks! Hoping it's just a 'defective' coil that the PO had a shop installed. I mean it wouldn't be the first time a fairly new part goes bad.


I'm hoping it's not the engine itself. I read a bunch of the head bolt stripping issues in the 2AZFE, although I would usually see either coolant consumption and rough idle with random misfires. Since it runs fine when hot, Hoping it's just the coil on pack. Planning to move the cylinder 3 to 4 and 4 to 3 before I headout from work.

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
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yeah, if that particular coil pack was the one replaced before, and if they didn't use oem, sometimes the spark line, or spark times are different enough to cause problems. hopefully a new pack will do it, assuming the problem moves when you swap 'em.
try the water squirt and see if you can create the stumbe at will.
tony

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yeah, if that particular coil pack was the one replaced before, and if they didn't use oem, sometimes the spark line, or spark times are different enough to cause problems. hopefully a new pack will do it, assuming the problem moves when you swap 'em.
try the water squirt and see if you can create the stumbe at will.
tony
so I swapped coil pack from 3 to 4 and 4 to 3. Still had a stumble yesterday after work. It was quite noticeable. It went away about 15-20 minutes of driving. After getting home, I waited 6hr before heading out late last night. Stumble was there but only under load, idle was fine. Wasn't too bad.

During the night, it did drizzle and was rather cool. This morning, stumble was only under load it seemed and was there for a good 10-15 minutes under lower RPM. I've been trying to 'force' it to throw a code, but it's not throwing any codes while its shuttering bad. It would put my mind to rest if the misfire code now tells me it is cylinder 4, but it's being stubborn!

I didn't do the water spray yet because I was hoping it would throw a code without adding another variable (water) to the mix yet. For what it is worth, cylinder 1 and 2 coil connectors are in terrible shape (it's really bad). I need to replace all 4 coil connectors.

Either way, if I can determined if it is spark plug or coil, planning to replace all coil with either junkyard Denso/Toyota if price is right, or brand new ones + new spark plugs.

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
'04 Camry SE I4 5SPD 167K

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did you swap the plugs too?
if not, try that.
if it still stays on 3, then could be an injector. put a long screwdriver on all 4 while running and see if 3 sounds like it's clicking the same as the others.
if so, then you could put some seafoam in the brake booster hose and see if it clears it up.
if not, pull the 3 injector and test it with a 9v and some cleaner per vids on youtube to ensure you gots spray. the pattern don't need to be perfect as long as you got spray.
if none of that works, then i'd do a compression/leak down test.

fyi, obd1 was concerned with engine driveability problems kinda like you're experiencing.

unfortunately, obd2 isn't!
unless the problem is emissions related, and it is so bad it causes emissions to go above 1 and a 1/2 times the federal allowable amount, then you usually won't get a code.

tony
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-17-2017, 12:42 AM Thread Starter
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did you swap the plugs too?
if not, try that.
if it still stays on 3, then could be an injector. put a long screwdriver on all 4 while running and see if 3 sounds like it's clicking the same as the others.
if so, then you could put some seafoam in the brake booster hose and see if it clears it up.
if not, pull the 3 injector and test it with a 9v and some cleaner per vids on youtube to ensure you gots spray. the pattern don't need to be perfect as long as you got spray.
if none of that works, then i'd do a compression/leak down test.

fyi, obd1 was concerned with engine driveability problems kinda like you're experiencing.

unfortunately, obd2 isn't!
unless the problem is emissions related, and it is so bad it causes emissions to go above 1 and a 1/2 times the federal allowable amount, then you usually won't get a code.

tony
Didn't try swap the spark plugs. I can do that another day. Gonna run a few days as is to see if I can get a pending code first. I'll report back then. Spark plugs were Denso SR11KR in cylinder 3 and 4. I asssume it is probably in 1 and 2.

For what it is, I did pull the spark plugs. They both all look the same, so I suspect it would be a ignition issue. I assume if it was a cylinder issue (headgasket, oil, etc), the plugs would look different. No coolant lost, No excessive oil lost or milky color shake. No overheating. Cars runs great when WOT to redline. Could still be a leaky cylinder, but that would (again, I assume) be running all the time crappy and not randomly and only when cold.

Previous owner had the diagnostic, spark plugs, coils, and two O2 sensors done at around 152K in 10/2015 when the car ran rough w/ CEL. Can you believe they were charged $2K for all that? Crazy! I can do all this for a faction plus have enough to pay for my other car registration lol! I'm so glad I can work on cars.

I've also isolated that the car needs to sit for about 4hr minimal. I was able to get it to surge after leaving parked on a luke warm engine after 4hr.

Starting to think that moisture isn't a roll factor now, might just be with temp.


3


4

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
'04 Camry SE I4 5SPD 167K
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ok, if you're satisfied you've got spark, then the 2 other funnels to head down into are fuel and compression.
as said earlier, verify the injectors are working the same. if so, and since you seem pretty sure you don't have a blown HG, then another thing in the compression funnel is the intake manifold gasket leaking when the car is cold and then improving as the engine warms up.
on a cold engine with the miss, take a water bottle with a hole in the cap and squirt the water around the intake and listen for sucking sounds to see if/where the intake leak is.
tony
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-17-2017, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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ok, if you're satisfied you've got spark, then the 2 other funnels to head down into are fuel and compression.
as said earlier, verify the injectors are working the same. if so, and since you seem pretty sure you don't have a blown HG, then another thing in the compression funnel is the intake manifold gasket leaking when the car is cold and then improving as the engine warms up.
on a cold engine with the miss, take a water bottle with a hole in the cap and squirt the water around the intake and listen for sucking sounds to see if/where the intake leak is.
tony

That's what I'm thinking. Interesting about the intake manifold. I'll try give your suggestion a shot. Never thought about doing that. Wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in a compression gauge eventually too.


For what it is worth, the car didn't stumble or hesitate today when I went work. Tried lugging engine, no issue or stumbling.... Only thing I did yesterday was disconnect and reconnect the 3&4 coils and Remove/reinstall plugs....wtffffff?! It throw everything else I suspect out kind of!

Appreciate all your troubleshoot tips. I will be monitoring the car closely.

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
'04 Camry SE I4 5SPD 167K

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i got that idea from paul danner on youtube. hopefully you find out what's causing this cause if you're like me, you hate for your baby to run badly.
tony

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i got that idea from paul danner on youtube. hopefully you find out what's causing this cause if you're like me, you hate for your baby to run badly.
tony
I'm almost 100% sure I found the issue.

Yesterday I had to go downtown for a social meetup. Car was shuddering and missing terrible for over 20 minutes only under engine load. Idle felt OK. So it came back...

I went to the junkyard today. Pictures are posted in the Gen3/4 forums.


Found a Gen6 2AZFE engine Camry. Thought the coils would be a good test subject for my issue






So I didn't know, but there is a difference between the 2002-2006 Camry coils and the 2007-2009 in the 2AZ. This coil part number (90919-A2001)

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/xref?s=90919-a2001&mU=on




The coil from the 2007, 2008, 2009 Camry 90919-A2001 is a hair longer than the one in my 2004 Camry 2AZFE engine. I assume the other years 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 uses the same size. It will work though, but won't sit flush as it is a TAD longer. The one from the newer 2AZFE engine is on the right. Wonder if this was to combat a known issue with the earlier 2AZ? Hmm....




I installed the new test coil on Cylinder 4 since I've swap the suspected bad coil that was originally on 3 to cylinder 4 as I had a P0303 ONCE this week and it never came back even with all this misfiring and shuttering going on. I was initially hoping the suspected bad coil would trigger a P0304, but again, it never did.

Anyhow, installed the new test coil on Cylinder 4 it and immedently it ran better cold start. Idle went up to 3K and drop down to the normal 1.8K cold ish range. Felt smoother. I then threw it in gear and went up hill. Noticed the car had more pep going up hill and less shuttering while accelerating. Went to lug the engine on cold in 3rd/4th gear going 25mph. No shuttering and it felt like the car had more power to pick up speed while lugging the engine. Took the car down to Costco to fill up gas. Throughout the freeway drive, the car had more pep throughout the RPM band but very noticable on the lower end. Car also didn't idle as rough, I thought it was just a 2AZFE 4 cylinder thing.




BUT it could had been a placebo effect in my mind. Sooooo I swap the old suspected bad coil back into Cylinder 4 at Costco while the engine was at normal operating temperature. No shame.


Swapped the coil with the old one, went to start the car. The car started fine but as it started to idle, it stumbled and idle dipped erratically then idle evened out, dipped, shuttered. Car also had a familiar 'shake' when it did (or thought it did) idle 'normal'.

Put back my other 'test' coil, smooth as butter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rant:
What is with this car, lol. PO had a bunch of work done not too long before I bought the car. Already replaced the crappy remand the shop installed and now one of the coils are bad? really?

This how much the previous owner paid for a reman alternator that went bad in 10 months, 3 weeks of ownership for me. Diodes shorted out. I ended up getting another reman but with lifetime warrranty. Works great so far *knock on wood*

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/10...-not-work.html


And now that one of the coil pack is bad....jeez, what bad luck haha!



Previous owner spent THIS MUCH for all that work above...and crapp coils. Not even Denso!!


I wonder if the coil issue that I am now discovering is/was contributing to my pinging issue....hmmm

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/10...ark-knock.html

'85 Camry DLX 162K
'87 Cressida 78K
'04 Camry XLE V6 108K
'98 Camry LE AE V6 216K
'06 IS250 + sport pkg 131K
'04 Camry SE I4 5SPD 167K

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so, is the problem fixed now?
tony

1994 Camry, 1MZ-FE, A541E
2001 Sienna, 1MZ-FE, A541E
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post #15 of 19 Old 02-21-2017, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgowaw View Post
so, is the problem fixed now?
tony
So far, yep! I've driven the car about 150 miles and no more hesitation/misses/misfire.

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  Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums > Toyota Passenger and Sports Car Forums > Camry and Solara Forum > Camry 5th & 6th Gen (2002-2006 & 2007-2011)/2nd Gen Solara (2002-2008)

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