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Bad Floor Board Rattlle 02 Camry XLE I4

2K views 10 replies 3 participants last post by  hardtopte72 
#1 ·
Vehicle:
02 Camry XLE I4 219k

Description:
Rattle at the floorboards. Worse when its cold. Rapid outside tire wear on left front. (new tire lasts 20k before outside is bald). Not just the edge of the tire, a gradual wear from the middle. Had recent alignments in attempt to resolve it, no luck. No accidents.

Background:
Took the Camry to the dealer a couple of years ago to have it inspected. On the list of things that "could" be fixed, one was "loose control arm bushings". Now I'm picking up a rattle at the floorboards. I hate rattles. Because of the mileage I figured just replace all suspension parts like I have done with other vehicles over the years. $200 at the local garage, my parts, its over.

Figuring out ahead of time what the labor bill would be to replace:
2X control arms with ball joints
2X inner tie rod ends
2x outer tie rod ends
2X stabilizer links

By the book mechanics use, replacement of the control arm bushings requires a whole new arm. That doesn't bother me, the arms and new ball joints are relatively cheap. What bothers me is the labor. 8 hours a side. Why so much labor? To my shock and disgust control arm replacement requires the removal of the engine. That means close to $1,000 just for the arms.

Questions:
Because of the cost, I need to be (somewhat) sure what it is rather than assume its something the dealer tech pointed out 2 years ago. I don't know for sure the rattle at the floor boards is the control arm bushings.

What are the symptoms of a bad control arm/bushing?

What else could a floorboard rattle hitting small bumps be? This is away from the struts, low, towards the transmission. Its something on that list, but I don't know the symptoms for each.

Has anyone had to replace the arms? Is there a way to jack the engine up, say detach the mounts to get clearance?

Thanks in advance
 
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#2 ·
I can provide some info about the control arms since I needed to do research for my wife's 2002 Camry LE.

1) I saw some posts about being able to remove the arms by removing a few engine mount bolts and jacking up the back of the engine. That would be much easier I would assume.

2) There are after market parts that supposedly enable you to replace the bushings WITHOUT replacing the arms.

I like option 2 the most. Hopefully, someone on this forum can provide more info. I tried neither because the bushings on my wife's car, though separating slightly, are not loose or making noise yet. When I jack up the car, the extreme travel of the suspension causes the bushing rubber to peal back 1/4 inch or so.

If your bushings are completely separated from the rim of the arm, or there are any holes in the rubber that you can see through, it's likely the bushing is causing trouble that would "clunk" and could damage a tire over time.
 
#5 ·
I will look into #2, but looking under there the large bushing insert would require the arm to be removed to press it in. Behind some frame/rail like metal. There is another smaller hinge like bushing that could be removed, but thats the one obstructed by the engine. Looking for a DIY for 1 if it exists. If I can get the arms replaced, the rest of the parts are cheap to install.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Control arm replacement does not require engine removal. Are you sure it's not .8 hours (48 minutes) a side? That sounds a lot more reasonable.

Internet diagnosis for a rattle is nearly impossible.

Why are you replacing both inner and outer tie rods? Are they loose, bent, or otherwise bad? You don't normally replace the front end parts just to replace them. That is a huge waste of money.

I would keep searching for a competent technician who can diagnose your issue.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Control arm replacement does not require engine removal. Are you sure it's not .8 hours (48 minutes) a side? That sounds a lot more reasonable.

Internet diagnosis for a rattle is nearly impossible.

Why are you replacing both inner and outer tie rods? Are they loose, bent, or otherwise bad? You don't normally replace the front end parts just to replace them. That is a huge waste of money.
From an unbiased mechanic that checked his database for quoting repairs:

R&R front lower control arm 8.4 hrs per side.
Add ball joint 0.3 per side.
Outer tie rod 0.6 both sides.
Inner tie rods, not time given. Use hourly rate.

First step = Remove engine and transaxle (4&6 cyl).

Thats what I'm going with, and thats what a mechanic is going to quote unless I can prove there's another way. Perhaps the second control arm will be cheaper once the engine is out of the way, another reason I'm considering replacing both at the same time. Looking underneath, access to the control arm mounting hardware is behind some sort of frame/mounting beam and the engine. Cant get a wrench in there.

As you state, rattle diagnoses is hard, over the internet nearly impossible. Why I asked if anyone was familiar with a control arm fail symptoms.

Here is/was my reasoning. I don't know exactly where the rattle is coming from. Having 219k on the all original parts, more than likely everything is on the way out. It takes a daily beating in the city of Boston. I thought it better to replace it all, takes away the guess work. Secondly, a replacement part is only as good as its weakest link, a weak link can prematurely wear the new part, or wear the old part faster. Always did this on my older cars/trucks, worked out well. Now that I see the cost of just the arms on this one, would agree, only do only whats necessary.

The inners are not broken per se. They are stuck, and the bolts cannot be moved for alignment, many have tried. Corrosion is the reason for replacement. The alignment is pretty close as of a couple months ago, so it does not account for the severe tire wear. the Toyota dealer said the bushings were going, and I'm wondering if thats causing the tire wear somehow (not holding the wheel in correct position cornering, etc). So, rather than guess about all this, replace it all was the idea. But costs has halted that, back to guessing what the rattle is. whatever it is feels like it wants to come through the floor boards at times.
 
#6 ·
I could be mistaken but im 99% sure My team and I did a few Gen 5 control arms before. You unbolt the mounts and using a floor jack raise the engine a little bit. The driver side is harder IIRC.

A lot of jobs call for removal and replacement of unnecessary parts. For example the Prius water pump requires removal of the bumper cover a headlight. I can do it without touching the bumper. Same goes for a Corolla drive belt. They want you to remove the wheel and splash guard yet it can be done without.

A good technician will charge a reasonable rate for the part.

I didn't realize your car had 219K (I didn't read the sig lol) so in your case since you are in the rust belt maybe all parts being replaced is a better option. Have you considered doing most of the work yourself? Tierods are especially easy to do and with some simple hand tools, a weekend, and time you can do the whole job yourself and drive your car to the alignment shop to wrap it up.
 
#7 ·
I do pretty much everything on my car, but when I have a question I have a buddy who is a Toyota MDT (Master Diahnostic Technician which means he is both ASE Master Tech And Toyota Master Tech) and he just confirmed the engine does not have to be removed.
 
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#8 ·
What a relief. The guy that gave me the labor costs is an ASE L1 Master, whatever that is. He just quoted me out of his database, and told me without looking, hard to say how accurate it was. I don't think hes a Toyota guy.

So your Toyota Master Tech buddy, did he confirm your method? (slight lift of the engine) Or does it need something else? (mounts unbolted, etc)
 
#9 ·
Haven't done one in a while but I think the driver side needs the engine mount (the one next to the oil filter) unbolted and then the engine raised to get 2 of the bolts out. From there you just need to separate the 2 bolts and 1 stud from the ball joint and remove the bolts and control arm. For the passenger side I am pretty sure it just unbolted like normal. Worst case scenario one of the subframe bolts is the control arm bolt in which case you just need to make sure do one side at a time.

Mind gettig under your car and snapping some pictures of the control arms on both side from the side and underneath to get a better idea (won't be able to help for at least another week as I'm still in VA).
 
#10 · (Edited)
Will snap some pics. The reason I was going to let somebody do this was the arm issues and corrosion as you eluded to. Both inner tie rod end alignment nuts are seized. Recently an alignment shop could not free them. They spent almost an hour trying torches lubes, different wrenches.

So 2 arms with joints, 2 inners that leaves the outers and links. At 220k may as well do them too. Or maybe skip them. The guy on my end also told me use Deeza, Moog has gone downhill. Deeza is in the middle reasonably priced. The ball joints have grease fittings. Whats your thoughts on part manufacturer?
 
#11 ·
I just swapped out some sway bar links with Moog on a Honda Accord. Quality was astounding. The links were solid, had grease fittings, and we're literally twice as thick and heavy as the failed OEM links. The stud and nut were also heavy duty.

I like Moog but most parts are good.

Also you replace all the tie rods at once. Remove the inners from the rack and remove the outer from the knuckle and take them off as one assembly. Note the number of exposed threads and reinstall the new tie rods with the same number of exposed threads.
 
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