E-10 : Alcohol Fuel Engine Precautions

[GvilleTCH]

This mandated E10 Fuel decision has me so mad - I will start a new thread...

In 11 gallons my MPG has gone from 43.5 average to 41.5 - using the MID , the NAVI consumption and paper/pencil using the same driving style over my extreme commute. Hopefully that's the extent of the MPG loss...There are other issues beyond loss of MPG so I'll post the following link (lots of info) :

http://www.fuel-testers.com/index.html

and this one to match the title of thread :

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ecautions.html

I was aware of most of this , but I was not aware that the driver of the gasoline truck adds the alcohol at the station when filling up the tanks, not at the refinery... As we cruise thru $4.00 for the Memorial Weekend...

[geoff5093]

We've had E10 in NH for several years on all pumps.

[toyomoho]

Lower MPG is not something that is mentioned when touting the attributes of using gasohol. Fortunately the problems of alcohol are now getting attention from major media.

The cars owner’s manual should state the max alcohol the car can use, this may be up to 15% but be sure to check. The car is typically designed for this amount of alcohol and will not be harmed by using it.

Are you sure the truck adds the alcohol at the station? This would seem to lead to the possibility of too much or too little alcohol percentage.

[GvilleTCH]

Originally Posted by toyomoho

Are you sure the truck adds the alcohol at the station? This would seem to lead to the possibility of too much or too little alcohol percentage.

Exactly , that's probably why the stickers that I'm seeing in Florida say "up to 10% ethanol".

I haven't seen it in person (which I quess is the only way to fact check) , but the link above (under precautions) does mention it...

[GeorgiaHybrid]

For any given area, all gasoline comes from the same tanks. Depending on where it is to be delivered, the tank farm will add additives for that particular station. I.E. if delivering to a Shell station, they will add what is required for Shell, the same for Texaco, Exxon, BP, etc.

Once the truck is loaded with gas, again depending on the area, alcohol is added at the tank farm or the driver will go to another discharge area to add the alcohol. In the Chattanooga, TN area, Midnight Oil distributes ethanol. Their distribution plant is less than a mile from the tank farms. It only takes a few minutes to add the ethanol and the driver is on his way to drop his load at the station.

It is getting harder and harder to find pure gasoline but it is worth the effort. On my TCH I take a 5% hit on mileage so to make it worth my time to burn 10% ethanol, the price would need to be 20 cents a gallon cheaper. Yeh, right....

Have you EVER seen a station drop their price when they add ethanol even though it costs a lot less that gasoline???

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Gville,

Just went to your link. The alcohol is NOT blended at the pump (at least anywhere that I know of) as it would require the stations to add another tank. Unless every station in your area has been digging some BIG holes lately, the alcohol is added before delivery.

If you want to check the percentage, don't pay for their kit. Buy a 200 ml test tube, fill to the 100 ml mark with distilled water, finish filling to the 200 ml mark with your fuel, shake well and let it stand until the fuel separates out.

If the fuel/water mark goes to 105 ml, you have E5, if it goes to 110 ml, you have E10, 130 ml, E30, etc.

[GvilleTCH]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHybrid

Gville,

Just went to your link. The alcohol is NOT blended at the pump (at least anywhere that I know of) as it would require the stations to add another tank. Unless every station in your area has been digging some BIG holes lately, the alcohol is added before delivery.

If you want to check the percentage, don't pay for their kit. Buy a 200 ml test tube, fill to the 100 ml mark with distilled water, finish filling to the 200 ml mark with your fuel, shake well and let it stand until the fuel separates out.

If the fuel/water mark goes to 105 ml, you have E5, if it goes to 110 ml, you have E10, 130 ml, E30, etc.

Thanks for the measuring suggestion. At this point I'm still trying to find stations that have No Sticker - assuming they are not yet E10. I was able to find a Shell tonight as I topped off for the weekend that had NO ethanol Sticker. It was the most expensive gas of all the Shell's I pass ($3.99/$4.09/$4.23)- but we're heading to $5.00 summer gas , so it's all relative... Some of my muscle car friends are cussing alot over this E10 gasoline. It would be great if they would offer E10 and regular gas at some stations , but at this point it's all E10 or not are various Stations...

[fueltesters]

Originally Posted by GvilleTCH

This mandated E10 Fuel decision has me so mad - I will start a new thread...

In 11 gallons my MPG has gone from 43.5 average to 41.5 - using the MID , the NAVI consumption and paper/pencil using the same driving style over my extreme commute. Hopefully that's the extent of the MPG loss...There are other issues beyond loss of MPG so I'll post the following link (lots of info) :

http://www.fuel-testers.com/index.html

and this one to match the title of thread :

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ecautions.html

I was aware of most of this , but I was not aware that the driver of the gasoline truck adds the alcohol at the station when filling up the tanks, not at the refinery... As we cruise thru $4.00 for the Memorial Weekend...

Hello-
Found this site from my "link-in" reports...
I think in my efforts to minimize lengthy explanations, you might have mis-interpreted on how and where ethanol is blended in...
It is not at the gas "pumps" but rather at the LOCAL fuel "distributors".

Yes the "truck driver" employed by the distributor may also have the responsibility for blending, but again this very precise procedure is not actually performed at your local gas station.

Basically ethanol is blended in 6000-7000 tanks.

Many people wrongly believe it's the major gas refineries (E.G. Shell, Mobil, Sunoco, etc.) who blend in ethanol, with the other hundreds of other ingredients gasoline contains - This is not true-

Plus, gas at the refinery level must go through extensive testing before being released - gas at the distributor level (after blending in ethanol) does not.

This helps to explain why you will find a wide variation of alcohol % at pumps, including ocassionally over the legal limit of 10%.

I'd also like to add, that several of my customers are gas station owners and distributors who are voluntarily testing to assure you get the highest quality of gas.
Sometimes, they start testing after customer complaints (performance issues, stalling, parts damage, etc.), and inspector determines bad gas (too high alcohol and/or excess water content)...

I still like to believe that most stations, would never add-in extra ethanol to increase profits, but many consumers do. Especially when the gas tests 20-40% (instead of legal max of 10%).

(Ethanol is cheaper than petroleum per gallon.)


Reason ethanol not added at refinery: Ethanol is hygroscopic (readily attracts and absorbs water) and too high a risk for water contamination if sent through underground pipelines.

E10 should be cheaper, but I've yet to find a gas station (based on 5 years of testing) that dropped their price immediately after switching from conventional non-alcohol to E10 gasoline.
Also, all gas station gets a 5-10 cent/gallon tax credit for ethanol blends.


If you read EPA studies/reports, the expected drop in MPG is only 2-3%.
For E85, the MPG decrease is about 40%.

However, what they fail to mention is that their studies were based on new cars in excellent condition.

The majority of cars on the road are not fuel efficient, new cars in excellent condition - so many should expect to see range of 4-10% drop in MPG.
High 15-20% decrease will occur in older engines, pre-1998, V6-V8 motors, high-performance and luxury cars, some trucks, SUV's, and especially cars in poor mechanical condition.

All too often pumps that are not labeled actually do contain ethanol. Usually the station owner will apologize and say he/she "planned to place sticker sometime today".

And for the 12-13 states who still do not require labeling, currently the only way to determine if gas contains ethanol is to test it yourself (re-usable portable kits that cost less than $25 - or have outside testing company check (hundreds of $).

Homemade science experiments can also indicate presence or absence of alcohol as someone mentioned above, however they lack the precise incremental measurements.
The volume expands when water is added to alcohol/petroleum gas at a molecular level (1+1 does not equal 2).

Knowing the exact percent is very useful for those who know and understand the costly and avoidable damage that can result from the repeated use of ethanol levels above manufacturer's fuel recommendations.

Almost every marine and auto manufacturer now permit the use of E10 in new cars. Check your owner's manual because even some models as recent as 2003 prohibit use of any alcohol or gasahol fuel.

Hope this helps - if anything unclear, do not hesitate to contact me-

G. Alexander, Owner Fuel-Testers, a division of MLR Solutions
fueltestkit.com and fuel-testers.com

[GeorgiaHybrid]

G Alexander,

Two things.

1) Ethanol can not be added at the refinery due to several reasons. The main one is that gas is transported in pipelines with other petroleum products. The method to keep them separate in the pipeline is to use a water "slug" between shipments. The ethanol will mix with these with bad results for all of us buying the fuel oil, diesel, gasoline, kerosene, etc. coming thru the lines.

2) Not to call BS but 1+1 still equals 2. 200 ml of solution does not become 210 when mixed in one of your miraculous test tubes. I do know a little about the business and realize that you are in the business of selling a product but don't start spouting crap that basic chemistry students should be able to debunk. There might be a 1/10 of one percent error when using a 200 ml test tube but I doubt that ANYONE would be able to tell.

[GvilleTCH]

Wow , I thought this Thread was long gone... However the ethanol is added to get to the pump is of some interest but what matters to me is that it decreases my gas mileage in a Vehicle I purchased to maximize MPG.

Not withstanding the increased energy used to produce Ethanol or the negative effect it has on World Food Supply - E10/E85 is still being marketed as a "green response" by the current world government(s). As I recall our Washington Leadership has mandated billions of $$$$ worth of future tax credits for ethanol. Yet our mainstream (Corporate) media still will not report on the true effect of E10 gasoline...

Any topic that keeps the E10 discussion active is worthwhile...

[toyomoho]

Did read an in-depth Time or Newsweek magazine article in the last 6 months proclaiming the myth of ethanol.

Read Paul Krugman of New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/07/op...ml?ref=opinion

Everyone is not sold on its usage but this is an election year. Politicians do not want to upset their voters who profit from it. It is also "Green" and gives everyone a warm fuzzy.

[fueltesters]

Originally Posted by fueltesters

Many people wrongly believe it's the major gas refineries (E.G. Shell, Mobil, Sunoco, etc.) who blend in ethanol, with the other hundreds of other ingredients gasoline contains - This is not true-

Plus, gas at the refinery level must go through extensive testing before being released - gas at the distributor level (after blending in ethanol) does not.

This helps to explain why you will find a wide variation of alcohol % at pumps, including ocassionally over the legal limit of 10%.

Reason ethanol not added at refinery: Ethanol is hygroscopic (readily attracts and absorbs water) and too high a risk for water contamination if sent through underground pipelines.

GeorgiaHybrid: In reviewing your responses to others, I get the feeling you simply have lots of free time, and enjoy useless debates/arguments.

I'll respond to you once - and next time you wish to waste my time it will be at my usual and customary hourly consultant fee.
(For everyone else, feel free to ask me any questions and I would be happy to answer them as often as I can, obviously for free).

As per my post, see quote above I stated ethanol is not added at refinery due to risk of water absorption...I never said there were not other reasons - and who cares anyway?
I was simply trying to help others to understand that ethanol blending is NOT at branded gas refinery, and primary explanation for distributors varying and (all too often) illegal, over 10% blending found at some pumps-

In simple words, "No regulating or gov't agency is routinely testing or monitoring that gas at pumps contains correct and legal amt. of ethanol".

Gas stations owners, not consumers, should be required by law to assure gas contains legal limit of ethanol...They're not.
+
Every state should have the same exact laws regarding E10 -They don't.
E.G. Some states require pump labeling, some don't, some require pump labeling when over 1, 2 or other percent...
Some states now require 10% ethanol in ALL grades of gas...Some states allow premium to be ethanol-free, most do not...and on and on...
- Very confusing for your typical consumer and for me too -

The state fuel laws change so rapidly (sometimes weekly/monthly) I can't keep up with them.

Next- You're accussatory, insulting remarks...
I would quote your full response to me, but I don't approve of your language.

You, (Georgia Hybrid) said, "I do know a little about the business and realize that you are in the business of selling a product...".

Wrong, my primary business/background is as a consultant...not a retail product business.
(Fuel-Testers is a division of MLR Solutions).

And regarding product deception, why don't you check out all the useless "ethanol fixing" fuel additives and gas treatment products that are booming.
(and leave me alone).
Of course, as an experienced educator for ethanol, these companies contact me almost everyday to "support" and "promote" their often useless and expensive products... I don't.
But, I may be forced too, if I keep wasting my time responding to people like you. (just kidding).

Some additives are useful, some are harmful, but none always prevent phase seperation/water contamination of E10 gasoline...but people waste money anyway thinking they will completely protect their engine from E10 - They won't.
Simple no-cost "necessary precautions" offer the best protection -
(See website or email me for copy)

Reusable, inexpensive portable alcohol test kits are useful for anyone wanting to do everything possible to protect their engines and/or avoid alcohol-blends of fuel.
5 years ago I thought need for test kits would be few years at most - instead gasoline laws became less consumer-friendly, E10 distribution rapidly increased throughout the U.S. and sales increased at an unbelievable rate (Sales doubled this past month).

Test kit we distribute uses only about 1 Tablespoon of fuel (18 cc) -
Test kit is alcohol resistant, weighs only 5 ounces, has raised non-ink permanent markings, rubber seal for transport/saving specimen...etc,

Your suggestion wastes 100 ml of costly fuel, relies on ink markings which will wear off with 1 or 2 uses (alcohol's a strong solvent/cleanser)...etc.

If you can't afford $15.00 to $25.00 for a product you can resuse over and over for years, evertime you fill-up, it's safe to assume you can't afford gas to drive your car either. (So why would I even want to "market" it to someone like you?).

And before you try again to misrepresent something I've said,
for the record:
1. I do not support e10 as a fuel(does little to decrease our petroleum consumption and has several damaging effects/risks to many engines, etc.).

2. I do believe ethanol is useful for oxygenation, where indicated (replacing MTBE) for now.

3. I do support E85 use in flex-fuel vehicles to decrease our dependence on petroleum imports, until a better alternative/renewable fuel is in the market (e.g. hydro, solar, wind power).

4. I do not believe E85 gas is a long term solution (but it is the replacemnt for petroleum we have right now).

I think it's a real shame that both our state and federal governements (mandating ethanol gas) have done almost nothing to educate the public on how to properly manage alcohol fuels.

Hoped my comments would be useful here - but really do not have time for the direction you (GeorgiaHybrid) keep going in.

People need useful explanations and practical facts and suggestions on how to safely manage e10 gas,

not hours of debate/discussion on irrelevant ideas, suchas "exactly" how gas travels through pipelines or detailed scientific computations on absorption or adsorption of ethanol and water.

Quote, Georgia Hybrid said, "1) Ethanol can not be added at the refinery due to several reasons. The main one is that gas is transported in pipelines with other petroleum products. The method to keep them separate in the pipeline is to use a water "slug" between shipments. The ethanol will mix with these with bad results for all of us buying the fuel oil, diesel, gasoline, kerosene, etc. coming thru the lines..."

My response: Who cares about 'slugs' - Public needs to know things such as :
Ethanol has an amazing ability to attract and absorb huge quantities of water into gasoline - There's moisture underground.

E10 has a short shelf life (months)- Is fresher when blended locally...
Conventional gas stayed stable for years...
Distributors blending can be inaaccurate...E10 Gas Pump labeling can be unreliable...etc.

End of story.

Good Night -

[jasonck08]

There are quite a few posts here not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But Ethanol contains ~35% less energy than gasolene. So E10 would be 3.5% less efficient than regular gas. If your experiencing decreases of 5% or more and are not changing your driving style then there is something wrong with your car that is causing it to run less efficiently.

[GvilleTCH]

Originally Posted by jasonck08

There are quite a few posts here not sure if this has been mentioned yet. But Ethanol contains ~35% less energy than gasolene. So E10 would be 3.5% less efficient than regular gas. If your experiencing decreases of 5% or more and are not changing your driving style then there is something wrong with your car that is causing it to run less efficiently.

That's kinda the point... Why are we mandating/funding a change in the contents of gasoline when the end product is less efficient and also has negative unintended consequences both to my vehicle and to the environment...:hypnosis:

There are lots of factors determining a given reading of my TCH's mileage and there are other threads that discuss those , but the fact that my gas mileage decreases (even if only by your 3.5%) does not follow "green" logic and yet E10 is marketed as such...

[geoff5093]

Originally Posted by GvilleTCH

That's kinda the point... Why are we mandating/funding a change in the contents of gasoline when the end product is less efficient and also has negative unintended consequences both to my vehicle and to the environment...:hypnosis:

There are lots of factors determining a given reading of my TCH's mileage and there are other threads that discuss those , but the fact that my gas mileage decreases (even if only by your 3.5%) does not follow "green" logic and yet E10 is marketed as such...

Some say it reduced emissions, and while it may I do agree with you in that even though it's cleaner, you need to burn more to go the same distance as there is less energy in Ethanol.