Hybrid vs LE? 2011 or 2012?

[Mithrandir]

I've decided to buy a car. I've got a 2001 Camry LE and it's awesome, but it's getting old and I want a new one.

But I'm having trouble deciding whether to get the Hybrid or the LE again. I'm like 80% decided on the Hybrid, but I'm cautious about some things:

1) the trunk space. While I have only used the full trunk space of my 2001 camry once ever, I still can't get over how small the Hybrids trunk is. Is it really that big of an issue? I guess I'm just worrying over that "what if I need it" thing.

2) I live in a really cold area, Buffalo NY. How well does the hybrid heat up in the winter time? Is it even worth getting a remote car starter? I am guessing that the heater works off of the engine heat, but if the car is sitting there idle, then it's not going to heat anything up and just waste electricity? I have no idea, no one I know has a hybrid. I've never seen one or driven one before.

3) no dealers in the area seem to carry more than 1 TCH in stock at any given time, and they're all white. But they all have like 70-100 gas-engine Camrys. Is the car rare for a reason? I can't seem to find ANY used ones anywhere either, though that might be a good thing (because people don't sell them once they have it!). I really want to get a blue one, is it worth having the dealership order a blue one for me from Toyota?

4) Why has the fuel economy dropped so much from the 2007 TCH? It used to be listed around 40 city, now it's 33 city. A lot of people say it's because of the new EPA formulas, but the Ford Fusion Hybrid says it's still around 40... (but it's blech, Ford )



Also there's a question about 2011 vs 2012. In 2012 Toyota is introducing a new generation of Camry. Typically I try to buy the last of a single generation car, because that one usually has the most tweaks and the least amount of "bugs". The 2001 was the last XV20, and it has treated me extremely well. I would think that the 2011, being the last XV40, would also have all of the bugs worked out. But the lower fuel efficiency figures, lots of complaints about the handling of the car, and the "shoddy" interior everyone complains about makes me wonder if maybe I should just wait for the XV50 (or whatever they call it, I don't have many details) to see if they fix all of the issues people have with it.

When would the 2012 Camry generally become available? Or at least when will we know more details about it, to see if it fixes some of the XV40's flaws?

How long will the 2011's be available to order, in case the 2012 doesn't turn out to be any better?


I know that's a lot of questions, but thanks for any input!

[cdn_tch]

1) trunk space is is 2/3 the size of a gas only Camry. We are a family of four that still had enough luggage room for a 10 day road trip, others my find it is not enough. If you've hardly used the trunk space in the last 10 years in your LE, you will probably be OK with a hybrid.

2) The hybrid will provide as much heat as a gas only Camry. The tradeoff will be in that the engine must run to generate that heat so if you set the interior temp to high, the engine may not shut off at all.

3) Gas prices have been low for the last 12+ months so hybrids are not as popular. Now that oil prices are climbing, you will see hybrids become very popular again with the corresponding price increases.

4) For 2008, the EPA changed how they calculate the mileage rating on ALL cars. The hybrids got hit harder, on paper, than gas only vehicles. The actual mileage of the cars has not changed. The hybrid gets its best mileage during comfortable temperatures (~15 - 80F).

[ukrkoz]

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

I've decided to buy a car. I've got a 2001 Camry LE and it's awesome, but it's getting old and I want a new one.

there's big difference between WANT and MUST HAVE. you have a GOOD car. you not gonna buy anything better, as Toyota's reliability and quality went down. that it's old does not mean it's bad. i had 91 Civic last year that had better mpg than 07 TCH.

But I'm having trouble deciding whether to get the Hybrid or the LE again. I'm like 80% decided on the Hybrid, but I'm cautious about some things:

1) the trunk space. While I have only used the full trunk space of my 2001 camry once ever, I still can't get over how small the Hybrids trunk is. Is it really that big of an issue? I guess I'm just worrying over that "what if I need it" thing.

yes, it sucks, and you'll find out the hard way. you are not the first one on this. as when what of happens, there's nothing you can do about it.

2) I live in a really cold area, Buffalo NY. How well does the hybrid heat up in the winter time? Is it even worth getting a remote car starter? I am guessing that the heater works off of the engine heat, but if the car is sitting there idle, then it's not going to heat anything up and just waste electricity? I have no idea, no one I know has a hybrid. I've never seen one or driven one before.

heater heats up fantastically well. less than 4 minutes full heat. you posted a wrong question though. how does hybrid drive heat up in cold weather is the right question. honest answer is - VERY POORLY. on mine, mpg dropped from 42 summer to 36+ winter, and it's not even that cold here. and this mpg roller coaster is confirmed by other users.

3) no dealers in the area seem to carry more than 1 TCH in stock at any given time, and they're all white. But they all have like 70-100 gas-engine Camrys. Is the car rare for a reason? I can't seem to find ANY used ones anywhere either, though that might be a good thing (because people don't sell them once they have it!). I really want to get a blue one, is it worth having the dealership order a blue one for me from Toyota?

read my note above. appears, there's whole lot of well educated folks where you live and they have it figured that HSD cars are not the right ones for the area. dealers ain't dumb. they sell what sells, not what green bunch in CA considers a hip car.

4) Why has the fuel economy dropped so much from the 2007 TCH? It used to be listed around 40 city, now it's 33 city. A lot of people say it's because of the new EPA formulas, but the Ford Fusion Hybrid says it's still around 40... (but it's blech, Ford )

careful with anything that has Ford on it... EPA slashed gas mileage rating for TCH. you need to ask end users that had HSD for years. 37-39 is realistic long term average. like i said, mine still shows up to 42mpg summer, but refueling calculations show it around 2mpg less. and i am VERY easy driver.



Also there's a question about 2011 vs 2012. In 2012 Toyota is introducing a new generation of Camry. Typically I try to buy the last of a single generation car, because that one usually has the most tweaks and the least amount of "bugs". The 2001 was the last XV20, and it has treated me extremely well. I would think that the 2011, being the last XV40, would also have all of the bugs worked out. But the lower fuel efficiency figures, lots of complaints about the handling of the car, and the "shoddy" interior everyone complains about makes me wonder if maybe I should just wait for the XV50 (or whatever they call it, I don't have many details) to see if they fix all of the issues people have with it.

jerky ride, squeaks and squeals moving from loose plastic panels, drab interior, mechanical issues with powertrain components. you are looking not at a specific model or year issues. you are looking at Toyota that got it high in its head, and ALL of its models suffered. how many years will it take them to restore reputation and will they even attempt to, who knows. GM lost its quality decades ago, and never cared to bring it back, and is still one of the biggest. with taxpayer money, yet...

When would the 2012 Camry generally become available? Or at least when will we know more details about it, to see if it fixes some of the XV40's flaws?

How long will the 2011's be available to order, in case the 2012 doesn't turn out to be any better?


I know that's a lot of questions, but thanks for any input!


i could have told you the right way of buying cars, but, apparently, you are an alpha buyer, so it will not work for you anyway. toss a good stereo into your 01, spend some $$ on general overhaul, and drive her until wheels fall off. put saved money into retirement. if you want a ridiculously reliable car with super gas mileage, get 95 or 96 Civic with I-VTEC engine.

[Mithrandir]

Originally Posted by cdn_tch

1) trunk space is is 2/3 the size of a gas only Camry. We are a family of four that still had enough luggage room for a 10 day road trip, others my find it is not enough. If you've hardly used the trunk space in the last 10 years in your LE, you will probably be OK with a hybrid.

2) The hybrid will provide as much heat as a gas only Camry. The tradeoff will be in that the engine must run to generate that heat so if you set the interior temp to high, the engine may not shut off at all.

3) Gas prices have been low for the last 12+ months so hybrids are not as popular. Now that oil prices are climbing, you will see hybrids become very popular again with the corresponding price increases.

4) For 2008, the EPA changed how they calculate the mileage rating on ALL cars. The hybrids got hit harder, on paper, than gas only vehicles. The actual mileage of the cars has not changed. The hybrid gets its best mileage during comfortable temperatures (~15 - 80F).

Thanks for the feedback. I don't mind leaving the heat on in the winter a little bit, it should still burn much less gas than a non-hybrid.

[Mithrandir]

there's big difference between WANT and MUST HAVE. you have a GOOD car. you not gonna buy anything better, as Toyota's reliability and quality went down. that it's old does not mean it's bad. i had 91 Civic last year that had better mpg than 07 TCH.

Well basically I live alone and my car is now 10 years old. I know the longevity of Toyotas is legendary, and I would love to drive it until it falls apart around me, but I don't want to take that risk anymore, since I don't have a backup car.

heater heats up fantastically well. less than 4 minutes full heat. you posted a wrong question though. how does hybrid drive heat up in cold weather is the right question. honest answer is - VERY POORLY. on mine, mpg dropped from 42 summer to 36+ winter, and it's not even that cold here. and this mpg roller coaster is confirmed by other users.

Well I don't mind this so much. I'm not really into the whole hypermiling thing, I just want a car that's got pretty good efficiency. So if it goes down in winter, but is still more efficient than the normal Camry, I consider that good.

read my note above. appears, there's whole lot of well educated folks where you live and they have it figured that HSD cars are not the right ones for the area. dealers ain't dumb. they sell what sells, not what green bunch in CA considers a hip car.

I am not sure. This area is mostly full of people who are anti-hybrid. I told my coworkers that I was considering a hybrid and they started cracking "pansy eco-nut" jokes. So I think it's just more that the people in this area are backwards and would rather drive Hummers and Suburbans than it is that Hybrids don't work in this area.

I was basically just wondering if there was a problem with the Camry hybrid specifically. There's actually a lot of Priuses and Nissan Altima's in the dealer lots around here. But very little TCH's.

careful with anything that has Ford on it... EPA slashed gas mileage rating for TCH. you need to ask end users that had HSD for years. 37-39 is realistic long term average. like i said, mine still shows up to 42mpg summer, but refueling calculations show it around 2mpg less. and i am VERY easy driver.

Hehe, yeah. My parents had fords for the longest time. Every single one had horrible electrical problems and the Taurus had brake rotors that warped every few months. I'll stay away from Ford until they can prove they make excellent cars for 10 years solid.

jerky ride, squeaks and squeals moving from loose plastic panels, drab interior, mechanical issues with powertrain components. you are looking not at a specific model or year issues. you are looking at Toyota that got it high in its head, and ALL of its models suffered. how many years will it take them to restore reputation and will they even attempt to, who knows. GM lost its quality decades ago, and never cared to bring it back, and is still one of the biggest. with taxpayer money, yet...

Yeah I had heard of all of these. I was kind of hoping that they went away with the 2011 model finally; typically car dealers get all those kinds of problems fixed by the final version in a generation. Does anyone with a 2011 here have these problems?

i could have told you the right way of buying cars, but, apparently, you are an alpha buyer, so it will not work for you anyway. toss a good stereo into your 01, spend some $$ on general overhaul, and drive her until wheels fall off. put saved money into retirement. if you want a ridiculously reliable car with super gas mileage, get 95 or 96 Civic with I-VTEC engine.

Again I would love to, I am seriously in love with my current car and I have no idea how I'll be able to part with it, but it's getting old and I don't think I'll be able to realistically keep it problem free for much longer :\


Thanks for the input!

[Rosko97]

The New Camry is set to be unveiled at the New York Auto show. I bet it will be on lots in December-January 2012

[johnjan]

We had a 94 Camry that went kaput last November. It gave me at the best 31 mpg (13+ km to the liter).
Just got a 2008 Camry and in the -17°C (1.4°F) that was there for a week here in the GTA area last week, I got around 37.5 mpg (16 km/liter).
Mind you, mpg also depends very much on how you drive. Apparently when you get used to driving a TCH, you can optimize your driving habits for an improved mileage.
The trunk space is adequate. The car handles well and again being a Toyota can be expected to last well.
Our 94 Camry was smashed into a wall by my better half with its odo reading at 360,000 km (223,700 miles).
Today, our TCH is reading 40.2 mpg after 160 miles from the last trip odo reset. Outside temperature is around -8°C (17°F).
75% Highway, 25% city Driving

[CamryPower]

I think you should listen carefully to ukrkoz -- there's a LOT of good advice there! I have a '97 Camry that is running fine, and I really can't justify replacing it at this time. BUT -- I am in a "pre-buying mode," checking out viable vehicle choices for when the right buying time occurs, so I'm not running around at the last minute attempting to make an intelligent decision on my next vehicle.

To that end, I had DISMISSED the previous generation Camry, both because of the professional and consumer knocks ("cheap" interior and particular exterior design) and my own independent test drives. Based on the initial responses to the 2012 Camry and Camry Hybrid improvements, I have them on my "possibility list," pending test drives and further revelations regarding the vehicles.

If I were you I'd hold off on a new car purchase at this time, and in the meantime price shop both the Camry and Camry Hybrid. Use all the available resources and techniques on the internet and car-buying services such as that available from Consumer Reports so you won't overpay, whenever you buy your vehicle. Negotiate with multiple dealers (even if you're not yet ready to buy), and preferably take someone with you who is bona fide savvy in knocking down new car prices. Don't feel you "have" to buy a car now, and make sure you work your price way down. Also check out www.realcartips.com and other websites.

Good luck!

[ukrkoz]

Thank you, CP.

I know what I have my sights on. After they start coming out of lease. Infinity M series Hybrid. It's a little of mpg drop, but does not really matter to me, as I am paid for mileage. It's huge power and luxury leap.
Also, buddy of mine owns a repair shop. He swears Nissans are very reliable, based on him almost not seeing them for repairs. ANd it's simplified Nissan Hybrid, LiIo battery, up to 62 mph in E mode only... TCH stayed the same for another 5 yrs, unfortunately. Sorry, my bad, Has fog lights now..

[arabianobsession]

The 12 Camry Hybrid will be out soon, and it's coming in 2 trims, LE and XLE. Trunk space is waaaaay up from 2011, plus more power AND 43 mpg. That's damn near Prius numbers right there.

There will also be Nav/Entune on the XLE Hybrid and a touch screen audio system on the LE, as well as options for Blind Spot Monitor and Safety Connect.

[ukrkoz]

yes, it's a nice car. I said it before place else and will repeat myself here: there's really, currently, no match for it's performance in the market segment. Competing Hyundai Blue is a big unknown, and I reckon, we here do not consider domestic alternatives.

Same time, 2012 is NOT a completely new design/concept/vehicle. It is the same structure/technology, with minor cosmetics. Power upgrade is minuscule, 9 hp is nothing to really brag about - or feel driving. it is shorter on E mode only run. It is 250Lbs lighter, indeed, and trunk is larger. But it's same Hybrid battery, while world is switching hastily to LiIo

As of promised 43 mpg. Folks, get real. It's estimated mpg. unless we are totally naive, we know how that goes. we will know FOR SURE end of next year, how realistic this number is, otherwise, we simply blow more wind into advertisers sales. besides, mine does roughly 40 tank average anyway, and REAL LIFE.

personally, I would have definitely appreciated internet streaming. But hey, my cell does that OK too. With all options, what it's gonna take to get one? $40+K?

please, understand. I am not dissing the car. I enjoy it and will recommend to a friend. But I feel that long standing Toyota's kahutz with GM did give its fruits, and T. got poisoned with same corporate mentality. Resulting in stagnating manufacturing and designs.

anyway, there's Honda Clear around the corner... That will prolly put hybrids to an end anyway.

[arabianobsession]

Lithium Ion is not as reliable. Toyota is doing a lot of testing on it and won't use it widely until they can keep it as reliable as what's currently being used.

2012 IS completely different. EVERY single piece of the body is completely different from the 2011 model. The engine is different from 2011. The car has been redesigned to have a lower coefficient of drag.....It's a huge improvement from 2011 in almost every way possible, seriously. I may work at a dealership but I am in no means biased towards Toyota or their products. I am only saying what I know and what I see and drive every single day.

[snookwhaler]

Wow...

I would listen closely to what was said in post #3. He has pretty much nailed it.

The trunk space thing "will be" problem at some point. It seems like a small thing until you realize how valuable that space is (especially the "pass through" with the seats down.) We actually use our car as a "Tool" for work and use the trunk literally every time we use the car. It has turned into a PITA. But, we have learned to live with it and work around it.

I have owned both newer VW TDI's and MB CDI's and find the Camry Hybrid a nice replacement economically. The difference in quality, handling and ride is lacking considerably IMO. But, it seems good enough for a car in this segment.

I can tell you that if I were shopping for a "Camry" (sounds like you are). I would be searching for a used Hybrid before considering a LE.

I drove down to Ft. Lauderdale and back today. Over 300 miles round trip and I averaged 38.5 MPG at speeds between 75 and 85 MPH in comfort. Thi is why I bought the car.

Even with all the stupid little problems... It is still a good car. Not great.... Just good.

[arabianobsession]

The 2012 Camry is a radically different car interior wise, and is 100x better in that segment, IMO. We have several 2012's on the lot now and I have spent considerable time in them. They're quieter, both with the engine and handling outside noises, have better quality seats that are more comfortable, plastics that don't scratch at the lightest touch, and a much better audio/infotainment system.

I'm not saying this car is perfect in every which way, I'm just saying it's radically improved from 2007-2011. Gen 6 quality was terrible, Gen 7 is loads better.

[Hotmale]

Originally Posted by arabianobsession

Lithium Ion is not as reliable. Toyota is doing a lot of testing on it and won't use it widely until they can keep it as reliable as what's currently being used.

2012 IS completely different. EVERY single piece of the body is completely different from the 2011 model. The engine is different from 2011. The car has been redesigned to have a lower coefficient of drag.....It's a huge improvement from 2011 in almost every way possible, seriously. I may work at a dealership but I am in no means biased towards Toyota or their products. I am only saying what I know and what I see and drive every single day.

You are wrong about the engine. Its the same engine for for all 2012 Camry including Hybrid. The only difference in Hybrid 2012 is the Atkinson cycle which is further tuned for better mileage. Please check the facts before posting into the forums.