On buying a Camry hybrid: I think I'll wait

[Aptos Driver]

I read about the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima hybrids with lithium-ion batteries instead of nickel-metal-hydride batteries that will be in showrooms soon. They both reportedly use the same power train. We don't have a Hyndai dealership here (the closest one is about 25 miles away, which makes service a problem), but we do have a new Kia dealership -- next to a Subaru dealership which in turn is adjacent to a Toyota dealership. Anyway, I dropped in there yesterday to talk to them and look at a conventional Optima. It looks to be a very nice car. I'm betting that even a fully tricked-out Kia Optima Hybrid (KOH), will cost less than an equivalent Camry Hybrid or Ford Fusion hybrid. This being a hybrid with a new battery technology, I'm a bit hesitant to become an early adopter. But I see that GM is using the same LG-manufactured lithium-ion cells in its Chevy Volt, and I figure that they must've tested the technology pretty thoroughly. Anyway, I'm not going to make a final decision until next fall and between now and then I'll have a chance to drive this car (and maybe even rent one, as I plan to do with the Camry hybrid) and see how the KOH works out for other people who are first on their blocks to acquire one.

[ukrkoz]

Aptos Driver;3465105]I read about the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima hybrids with lithium-ion batteries instead of nickel-metal-hydride batteries that will be in showrooms soon. They both reportedly use the same power train. We don't have a Hyndai dealership here (the closest one is about 25 miles away, which makes service a problem), but we do have a new Kia dealership -- next to a Subaru dealership which in turn is adjacent to a Toyota dealership. Anyway, I dropped in there yesterday to talk to them and look at a conventional Optima. It looks to be a very nice car. I'm betting that even a fully tricked-out Kia Optima Hybrid (KOH), will cost less than an equivalent Camry Hybrid or Ford Fusion hybrid. This being a hybrid with a new battery technology, I'm a bit hesitant to become an early adopter.

well, it's adapt. but anyhow. it is not wise to buy ANY new model; bugs need to be worked out.

But I see that GM is using the same LG-manufactured lithium-ion cells in its Chevy Volt, and I figure that they must've tested the technology pretty thoroughly.

GM does something thoroughly? company that incentivised it's suppliers and manufacturers to use cheaper and cheaper parts? and finally went bankrupt? oh you talking about some other GM? Goldwyn Meyer surely tests everything out fine.

Anyway, I'm not going to make a final decision until next fall and between now and then I'll have a chance to drive this car (and maybe even rent one, as I plan to do with the Camry hybrid) and see how the KOH works out for other people who are first on their blocks to acquire one.

and the reason you MUST HAVE hybrid is? i lost count of how many times i said - wait for new gasoline stratified direct fuel injection engine cars to show up, which new Sonata is almost there. just like they have them in Europe. or, even better, if you FIT into it, get new Insight. EVERYONE agrees that Honda hybrid drive is better than HSD. between you and i, i already tried new Civic Hybrid. unfortunately, i do not fit well, 6'5''. but will sit in new Insight soon, as they have different console configuration, without hand brake digging into a human knee. also, i'll let you in on another secret. my 91 Civic had better average mpg than 07 TCH i own now. btw, on a general note. good choice. hyundai and kia are new, young, hungry companies. they do care about getting bigger market share, and are obviously going to big lengths to improve not just their cars but, also, their customer service. personally, customer service is more important than product itself.

[Aptos Driver]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

it is not wise to buy ANY new model; bugs need to be worked out.

You're certainly right about that. That's been my hesitancy about buying a Ford Fusion hybrid (FFH) since the FFH is only going into its second model year. So, yes, on that basis it doesn't make much sense to pile into a brand-new Kia Optima hybrid (KOH). It would be the height of irrational exuberance on my part.

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

GM does something thoroughly? company that incentivised it's suppliers and manufacturers to use cheaper and cheaper parts? and finally went bankrupt? oh you talking about some other GM? Goldwyn Meyer surely tests everything out fine.

Yup, there's that too. The FFH would be a wiser choice than the Chevy Volt right now.

Anyway, as I said, "I'm not going to make a final decision until next fall and between now and then I'll have a chance to drive this car (and maybe even rent one, as I plan to do with the Camry hybrid) and see how the KOH works out for other people who are first on their blocks to acquire one." And maybe I should just delay any decision for another year.

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

and the reason you MUST HAVE hybrid is?

We don't have to have a hybrid right now. The reason I'm looking at 'em is that I'm thinking it's about time to get a new car for my wife. She's driving our 11-year-old Volvo S70 GLT SE (10 of those years being ours) with 114,000+ miles on the odo. It's running fine and with timely maintenance should easily go another 40K or 50K without needing major work -- although who knows? She likes it and I wouldn't want to replace it with any of the conventional gas-powered cars on the market now. But if we're going to get a new car, a hybrid seems like a good idea. Our other car is an '07 Toyota RAV4 Limited with AWD and a blow-your-mind 6-cylinder engine. We love it.

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

i lost count of how many times i said - wait for new gasoline stratified direct fuel injection engine cars to show up, which new Sonata is almost there.

I haven't heard about those, but I'll Google 'em today.

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

on a general note. good choice. hyundai and kia are new, young, hungry companies. they do care about getting bigger market share, and are obviously going to big lengths to improve not just their cars but, also, their customer service. personally, customer service is more important than product itself.

Yeah, that's a really good point in their favor. When I talked to the Kia guy he told me that while their cars are under warranty, if a buyer breaks down somewhere away from home, they'll not only pay to tow the car to the nearest Kia dealership, they'll pay for a motel or hotel too! I want to know what kind of warranty they'll be offering on the lithium-ion battery.

[suzydoo_98]

It really is a mistaken comment to say that KIA and HYUNDAI are young companies... but they are "New" to America that is for sure.

I like the looks of the NEW SOnata- but to those of you thinking it will be a "Less expensive" vehicle than the established Hybrids think again. We have a dealer in our town- and he has ONE of the hybrids.... it is loaded... the base price was almost 27K... and then the "Add ins" brought it up to almost 34K.... and then for the FIRSTYEAR the dealers will be playing on the people's desire to have the newest toy in town... so they will do a markup..... Oh and I read somewhere that contrary to what one would think... Hyundai intends to keep limited availability of the Hybrids the first two years- MAKING THEM MORE EXPENSIVE (Supply and demand). I did like the optional glass roof on the Hyundai though.... looks cool...

ALL in all... I am not sure that going the brightest and newest looking thing is always better than going for the tried and true version... You just never know....

As has been said before, I am not sure I would go for anything that GM has thoroughly tested- they have a full taxpayer base to fund their flubs with.... No big deal if they blow a billion Uncle Obama will bail themout again.

Anyonw remember a small Auto company called DAEWOO? GM helped them out- and just did not take their liabilities for those American drivers who purchased their product. They were young and upcoming also.... and then they were NOT!

[healeysa]

I just bought a THC 2011. I love the car. I test drove the 2011 Hyundai Sonata (not the Hybrid). The Camry ride much better and the view on the Sonata is restricted. I also test drove a few different Sonata's and all of the brakes felt different. I don't trust any Hyundai product. The Sonata looks very nice, but talk to me when the car has 150,000 miles on it.

[ukrkoz]

i am waiting until 08 Accord Hybrids will start coming out of lease. will trade mine in and buy one. one with V6, btw. i'll lose around 5mpg, but i do not care much, i am paid for mileage. but i'll gain a much more HP and much less jerky powertrain. and a MUCH bigger trunk.
yes, enjoy 2011 one. have no doubt. wait till it loosens up though.
i am still shaking my head over patently wrong idea of continuously shutting down/turning on ICE. honda got it simple. shuts down 3 cylinders in cruise mode and at low load. nice and simple.

[Joe B]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

i am waiting until 08 Accord Hybrids will start coming out of lease. will trade mine in and buy one. one with V6, btw. i'll lose around 5mpg, but i do not care much, i am paid for mileage. but i'll gain a much more HP and much less jerky powertrain. and a MUCH bigger trunk.
yes, enjoy 2011 one. have no doubt. wait till it loosens up though.
i am still shaking my head over patently wrong idea of continuously shutting down/turning on ICE. honda got it simple. shuts down 3 cylinders in cruise mode and at low load. nice and simple.

How many Accord Hybrids does Honda sell?I don't think I've ever seen one on the road.
I live in the NYC metro area and just checked cars.com.There's 13 used Accord hybrids available in a 100 mile radius.108 Camry hybrids in the same 100 mile radius.
The Camry has a smoother and quiet ride quality.5 more MPG's is nice too.
The Accord handles better but has a road noise loud and a bumpy ride.
As far as trunk space,the Accord is about a half cubic foot bigger.11.2 cubic ft to 10.6.
If I was to go with another brand of hybrid,I'd go with a Fusion.

Good luck with your purchase,though.

[Aptos Driver]

Originally Posted by Joe B

If I was to go with another brand of hybrid,I'd go with a Fusion.

That's the other hybrid I'm seriously considering, that or if I feel really flush, the Lincoln MKZ hybrid.
Meanwhile, I've arranged to rent a TCH for a three-day weekend from the local Toyota dealer -- for $115, not bad. That's the best way to get the feel of a prospective car, I think. Ford dealers won't/can't/don't rent FFH's or MKZH's; insurance issues, I believe. So we'll just do another test drive in one in the middle of our TCH rental experience. There's a pretty good grade on the local freeway that I want to drive back-to-back with both cars to compare how well they do maintaining the speed limit (65 mph) going up the hill. Should be interesting.

[suzydoo_98]

Excellent ideas APTOS....
I test drove a Ford Fusion Hybrid about a month ago.
At the time, I was sold on it- but the dealer was playing games with me... so I did not end up with it.

He was selling it online- and invited me up (125 miles) to look at it.... I asked if there was any deposit or anything because I am not driving that far on a whim.... NOPE! Anyhow I drove the 125 miles to see the car.... talked to the Used Car manager (it was CPO)- had my car appraised.... made an offer (100% of asking price).... Already to buy the car... right? NOPE!!!! After 3 hours from beginning to end in the showroom, the GM comes in and says NO DEAL.... I took a deposit (while you were test driving the car) and there are people driving down from MI to look at the car, and buy it.

HUH?... I already signed the paperwork your salesman put in front of me for the deal? The GM said- well the finance paperwork isn't done yet, so the deal is not done.

I said "WRONG- I have a check for $25000 right here". He told me he already had a deposit and that I must wait for the other people to come and see if they desire the car first.... MIND YOU I WAS IN THE CAR DRIVING IT WHEN THEY TOOK THE DEPOSIT....

SO the GM said Hey, I have a great AUDI I can sell you for $25000, I have a couple older Mercedez in the back that I can work a deal with that as your Downpayment, or you could throw in a few thousand out of your bank.... I LOOKED AT HIM, and yelled loudly "Are you NUTS IN THE HEAD?" I was very pissed off... 3+ hours working on the deal (because they were delaying- claiming they were busy).... and then this?

ANYWAY, I did notice a few things on the pretty car I drove that day..... One the ODOMETER (Fuel consumption data counter on the center console) it had the avg miles per gallon listed.... This car has 32.3 Miles- all the time I took my 20 mile test drive in it... NO CHANGE- so I assumed that was because it had been driven extensively since last reset, and that was what I was getting in town....

NOT ALL THAT GREAT....

Anyway I left that dealership and went North to do things in Chicago.... While there I got a call at about 4:30 from the dealership to inform me that the people from Mi took the car, and again asking me to come back, as they had many other wonderful cars (and I had money).... I said -NOPE!

That leads me to what happened a few weeks later.... When I found another car on the internet.... this one was a CPO Hybrid Camry.... Pretty car!

When I saw it online.... I still had a check in hand (From the FCU) that could be used at any dealer, by filling things out properly... SO I called the dealership. I spoke to a man at the dealers (Chris Strocyk), told him I was interested in the car he had.... He told me then that he had (4) of them that were being removed from his fleet and being certified and sold. I asked what they had on them... and they were pretty much loaded, Leather, NAV, Backup Camera, Moon Roof, etc etc.... SO he gave me a link where I could see many pictures of each of them. I looked at the four of them on his website, and called back. I told him I liked the "Aloe green" version.... without a deposit he told me.. "I WILL HOLD IT FOR YOU FOR 48 Hours" I asked about a deposit, and he stated I have it- I am a GM here, and it will not be sold until you call off or visit.

SO I hung up , and called back later- I described my trade in and sent him a few pics (ODO, Front of car)... he gave me an estimate of what the car was worth to him... and said "IF we need to massage things we can make a deal work". I told him I would come up the next afternnon (130 miles- Naperville IL). I saw the car, and fell in love with it. I am so happy that I did not get the Fusion the month before.... SORRY, but (even in the cold- which reduces efficiency) my new car is averaging almost 4 miles more/gallon than the ODO on the Fusion said it had been averaging. It feels slightly more roomy (and I am a big guy 6'6")... but the trunk appears to be smaller. IF someone came up to "ME" with the FUSION I had seen and offered to pay me $2000 and give me that car, for my car- I would say NO!!!!!
SO I advocate looking at them all.. and asking the Delaer (and those in nearby areas) if they have any fleet (Track) Hybrids that they are preparing to sell. I believe I got one heck of a deal for my car at $26,200, when using the BUILD YOUR OWN thing on the Toyota site shows it's calue at about $35K... It is certified for 100K miles, and it has an extended warranty put on it for 100K miles .... So no worries... When I bout it the ODO was at 5800.... I guess the best thing to do is remember there are good and bad in them all.. The trunk is tiny in a TCH.... lol IF you find a FOrd Fusion that is on the lot with less than 10,000 miles ask why. The only person I know who spent the 33K for his is saying his "DOES NOT" get the EPA milage figures.... SO ya never know.. Use the information panel and see what kind of milage the car has been getting long term (on both vehicles).... On the TCH you need to go into INFO then FUEL consumption to find it, but it is there.... I don't remember what roiute you take to get that info on the fusion...
Aptos....these thoughts (with this much cash on the line) are tough...LOL but we love our new car....

[ukrkoz]

just to correct myself.
some time ago i posted a remark that i'll wait for 2008 accord hybrid to come out of lease and will trade my camry for it.
just found that for 2008, which was beginning of another 5 yr run for a new model, they discontinued hybrid accords, period. for reasons multiple, mostly, they did not catch on the market.
i do not fit well into 2007. height and knee room issues.
so, i have to apologize to my camry - and drive her till wheels fall off.
afraid, you are stuck with me for long time in this forum now.

[Aptos Driver]

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

we love our new car....

Thanks for that extensive reply and all that great information. It's crazy that you had to drive to Michigan to look at a Ford Fusion, or all the way up to Chicago (I grew up there) to buy a TCH. I know about Naperville because one of my old college classmates grew up there.

We have some pretty well-stocked Toyota and Ford and Ford/Lincoln dealers within a half hour to 45 minutes drive away (on top of two local dealers, not as well-stocked with TCH's or FFH's). When I get serious about buying, I don't think I'll have much trouble finding cars.

I'm amazed that the Michigan Ford dealer treated you so shabbily. I wouldn't bother dealing with the local Toyota dealership, because their sales people always seem like you're inconveniencing them when you say you want to look at a car. There's a dealer "over the hill" (1,800-foot summit) in Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale) that recently had something like 22 TCH's in stock. I think their sales people are kinda squirrely because one 'em, who was nice enough to email me a couple of invoices, quoted me a price that was actually higher than their "Internet" price. Moreover, the invoice he sent me showed the factory "holdback" as a charge to the buyer, when it's actually a kickback from Toyota on every TCH they sell. In other words, they're trying to collect it twice. If I decide to get a TCH, I'll probably end up there, but I'll be very wary and armed with my laptop and spreadsheet.

I'm glad to hear that you like your TCH. I've talked to a couple of actual TCH owners around here and they said they were very happy with theirs. I'm not worried about the limited trunk space because our other car is an '07 AWD 6-cylinder RAV4 Limited. I love it!

[suzydoo_98]

Aptos... We have one of the dreaded Dealership chains in our area.... they have control of TOYOTA for this immediate area.... and if I do say so myself... THEY SUCK! They also have Toyota dealerships up in Chicago area...

In Dec. 2008, My wife handed me her annual "what I want for XMAS" list. I appreciate that my family does this, because it allows me to know what to look for. Anyway, I digress.... That year her item was a NEW Toyota Prius (2009 model). SHe wanted it in white, with a certain amt. of options on it.... NO PROBLEM. Anyway about the week of the 4th of Dec I noticed that our local dealer (I'll call him the intellectually challenged Lion) had somehow come by a plethora of these vehicles. He suddenly had 5 on the lot, when he was taking orders for them a few weeks earlier. SO I stopped in to speak with them, and see what they could do for me.

Well there were five there (and as I found out another 8 in the CHicago area at his dealerships) that had recently come in. Apparently a manager thought ahead realized these may make good XMAS presents and bought a dozen?.... LOL

SO anyway- to move on, I started asking about them.. and was told about all these cars they had.... so I said "I WANT A WHITE ONE"... Well that was like asking for my dog to give birth to a hippo (and he is a boy). Their faces got contorted.. they turned red, they started speaking in jibberish and said (and I quote) "WELL WE WANT TO SELL YOU A BARCELONA RED ONE" WHAT?????? LOL.. SO I said" well I am filling a XMAS list and it is specific.. it says WHITE..... Their reply? Well give us her phone number and we shall call her and tell her how wonderful this BARCELONA RED one looks and convince her to take it. WHAT?.... SO I asked to speak to the sales manager.... and after about 40 minutes he showed up. I believe he was at a local watering hole... LOL Anyway, he tries again.... WE WANT TO SELL YOU A BARCELONA RED PRIUS.... I asked if he had been told I wanted WHITE... YUP, he had.. but he thought the red was prettier..... LOL

SO I told him FIND ME THE WHITE... and it is sold. They left to the back room- presumably a computer is somewhere near the keg...... LOL After a while they both came back giddy like schoolgirls looking at pictures of Justin Beiber.... and said "WELL what if we can find you one- we may know where there is one.. we really may"... and they sat down and wrote a price on an offer sheet.... They told me the sticker of the car would be $26432 but that since they needed to "Aquire" it I would be required to give them a $1000 dealer markup. I laughed, and said NOPE! SO they tried a different approach, and said Well How about you just give us a $1000 NON_REFUNDABLE deposit and we shall see if we can get it.. we are pretty sure we can. I said "NON-REFUNDABLE?... NO THANKS". They said something to the effect that those were their terms.... ( Look if I give you something you can keep regardless why would you do the job?)... SO I told them I would let them know but do not hold their breath unless they are near each other.... ( they both wreaked of alcohol).... and I left.
I started for home, and began thinking.... damned they seemed to be playing a game, but did they find one close by and know they can pocket and extra $1000 for nothing?... HMMM? SO I went home and did a search for every toyota dealer within 100 miles, and began calling them. Called all the ones in Indy, Muncie, Fort Wayne, NOTHING! Then I thought to myself... HMMM- Kokomo Indiana.... Chrysler TOwn.... do they have a toyota dealer? Well not really.. they have one as part of an auto complex, but not really a big seller?.... SO I called them... and guess what I found.... a White Prius.... One that they did not want to keep on their lot. BRAND NEW... but they had gone to a dealer's auction, and bought 10 fleet Prius' and wanted to make the bigger markup on those... SO I was speaking with a salesman, told him to ask what the price was, and I would put a deposit on the phone. He told me that the sticker was 26432.... but that the General Sales Manager wanted to speak with me. I said sure.
SO the guy got on the phone, and he repeated exactly what options were on it, and that they had just bought a bunch of fleet cars and would make MUCH more on those.... He told me he wanted this NEW car off the lot. HUH? WHAT? SO I asked why they had gotten it and he told me it was ordered for a Chrysler Employee who had since been laid off.... and reiterated he needed it gone. I said sure- but what will happen to the Chrysler guys deposit?.. I mean this guy is in a ton of hurt.... No Job... a family to take care of.... The Sales manager told me once he takes another deposit that man will get his money back.... SO then I said- OKAY let's talk.... FIRST WORDS after that were, I will give you $500 off the sticker price to take the car..... HUH? SO he made it $25932,,, (which was 500+ 1000 the other dealer wanted extra) less.

SO I drove the 80 miles then to get that car.... brought my wife on 12/9/08.... and she got to see the car for the first time, in the wash bay of that tiny dealers.... SHe saw it, and said SEE HONEY THAT IS THE KIND I WANT.... I said- well then Merry Christmas.... IT IS YOURS! She looked at me.. and said WHAT?... I told her we needed to take it on a test drive, and finish the paperwork, but she was driving her new car home in an hour.
Then with the 2011.. I drove 120+ miles to get to it.... They refused to even attempt to meet the Naperville dealer's price. As a matter of fact they told me that in our area they would not sell me that car for under $30,000... and I will drive 120+ miles one way for $4000 any day of the week.

SO I understand that many of the dealers do not DEAL.... Funny thing is Our local dealer sends us coupons for maintenance on the prius we bought elsewhere.... I am sure he will send us coupons for the camry I bought elsewhere. I used to have a Honda Accord (bought elsewhere because they would not deal on that either -owned by the same guy) they sent me notices for it also.... HMMMM? SO you do not want to sell the vehicles you just want to do the warranty work on them, and oil changes? OKAY! LOL I just do not understand that thought process- but it might work for them.

You are out near silicon valley. It is warmer out there, so the decrease in milage due to bitter cold won't happen for you guys. We liked the FFH.... and WE love our new TCH car.... and as I said it is getting 4 more miles to the gallon than the FFH had on it's fuel efficiency report...
Aptos, I think you will love the TCH if you get one.... IU think you will love the FFH if you get one too... it appeared a bit smaller inside to me.... but no big deal... I just wouldn't promise you that it will live up to it's EPA numbers... I have only had experience with the one that I drove (it said 32.2 mile/gal) and the one my friend has that he swears has NEVER reached the promisses. If you like the style of car, and are happy with whatever increase you get in the milage- then YOU WIN!

[Aptos Driver]

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

In Dec. 2008, My wife handed me her annual "what I want for XMAS" list. I appreciate that my family does this, because it allows me to know what to look for. Anyway, I digress.... That year her item was a NEW Toyota Prius (2009 model). SHe wanted it in white, with a certain amt. of options on it.... NO PROBLEM.

Well my wife doesn't have much interest in getting a new car; she likes her Volvo S70 just fine. I'm the one who would like to see her driving a hybrid.

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

I noticed that our local dealer (I'll call him the intellectually challenged Lion) had somehow come by a plethora of these vehicles. He suddenly had 5 on the lot

That's a "plethora"? Our local dealer as a lot stuffed with Priuses, so many, it's too much trouble to count them all. On the other hand, they have one (1) TCH right now, and it's only a base model.

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

Well there were five there (and as I found out another 8 in the CHicago area at his dealerships) that had recently come in.

Only 8 at all the guy's Chicago-area dealerships? Jeez! It can't be a very popular car back there. Out here they're as common as pigeons in a big city. You almost can't turn a corner without encountering one.

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

SO I went home and did a search for every toyota dealer within 100 miles, and began calling them. Called all the ones in Indy, Muncie, Fort Wayne, NOTHING! Then I thought to myself... HMMM- Kokomo Indiana.... Chrysler TOwn.... do they have a toyota dealer? Well not really.. they have one as part of an auto complex, but not really a big seller?.... SO I called them... and guess what I found.... a White Prius.... One that they did not want to keep on their lot. BRAND NEW...

Maybe you should've tried Amazon.com?

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

SO I drove the 80 miles then to get that car.... brought my wife on 12/9/08.... and she got to see the car for the first time, in the wash bay of that tiny dealers.... SHe saw it, and said SEE HONEY THAT IS THE KIND I WANT.... I said- well then Merry Christmas.... IT IS YOURS! She looked at me.. and said WHAT?... I told her we needed to take it on a test drive, and finish the paperwork, but she was driving her new car home in an hour.

Sweet. You must really love your wife.

Originally Posted by suzydoo_98

You are out near silicon valley. It is warmer out there, so the decrease in milage due to bitter cold won't happen for you guys. We liked the FFH.... and WE love our new TCH car.... and as I said it is getting 4 more miles to the gallon than the FFH had on it's fuel efficiency report...
Aptos, I think you will love the TCH if you get one.... IU think you will love the FFH if you get one too...

The question is whether my wife will love it. She just hates change.

[suzydoo_98]

Here in Middle America there are not a lot of Hybrids... (8) at a dealer is a TON.... We have CORN, and it can be made into Ethanol.... so manyof the people here think they have a never ending solution to fossil fuels..... You know take away man's food to give it to his machinery.

Besides Gasoline never told you what time of day it is.. but a cornstalk can work well as a sundial..... LOL
If it doesn't work well for that- well it can always be made into a scare crow.... or popcorn...or your favorite sodas.... BTW; I am actually from the North East so I am full of Corn jokes.... but I must admit I was flabbergasted when I heard people walk down the street asking each other if they wanted to play cornhole with each other..... NOT what I thought the term meant.

I DO LOVE MY DEAR WIFE.... we got together when we were 18 and we are in our 50's now.... WHo else would have me?... I am trained her way... LOL

We are a retired military family.... so both of us fully understand CHANGE.... we used to change locations, and my assignments virtually every two years... and half the time the makeup of the family would change for most of the time during those two years, while i was away (deployed).... so Change is something we are good at....
I hope you lovely wife likes her new car as much as mine liked hers... it is great to see them happy ( then they are not mad at ya)- Just Kidding.... LOL

[Aptos Driver]

Suzydoo -- I see that you live in Indiana. I don't know where I got the idea that you lived in Naperville, IL. Although I've moved around quite a bit, my wife hasn't. She's wedded to our area -- Santa Cruz County. It's a great place to be stuck in a geographic rut, as it were. Anyway, we're in our mid-60s and we're both getting more change-averse by the day.