morning "welcome shake"

[ukrkoz]

well, I think something similar was posted here before.
was around 41 degrees outside, when i pulled out of garage this morning.
mine normally pulls out on HSD only. so she did. then ICE started.
the whole front end went berserk. shake. it felt like as if ICE started off single cylinder, with the rest of them slowly picking up. something i'd expect from a 20 yo car, not this.

i am mostly curious if someone else experienced this, and what was possible outcome. i still have 4 000 miles left on PT warranty.

[andym1978]

I can count about 6 times this has happened to me since I bought the car in June 2006. It has to do with the timing of my departure from my parking spot at certain cold temperatures. In my cases, I had 3 seconds during gas engine startup where the engine shook and made knocking noises like something was interfering with the startup. It was very much like how you described your instance. For me, it has not gotten better or worse since it first happened 4 years ago, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. If it happens often, then it might be worth checking out.

[ukrkoz]

ok. she did just as usual thereafter through the day, including several start ups. i'll see how goes it. it darn sounded like as if timing was off or only one cylinder fired and then the rest picked up.

well, i guess, no matter how much i try to make my heart like this car, she keeps pushing me back.

[WhiteSands]

I have had this same problem, rarely on a 30 to 40 degree morning start-up. I will start the engine, then the engine shakes. I put it in reverse to back out from under the carport without touching the gas. The only thing that helps on mine is tapping the gas pedal, that seems to settle it down, then the engine start to run fine.

I think it's more the engine running on the lean side during a rather cold morning crank-up. I say that as I get very good mpg even during the cold winter with temperatures in the low 30's.

I remember how the older engines would shake running to rich on the old carburated cars due to a defective choke pull-off problem.

I'm using phillips 66 which is as a toptier gasoline, so I doubt this particular problem is gas related. My TCH is a 2007 model with about 33,000 on the clock.

[ukrkoz]

i am alternating cars, so she set in garage for 1.5 day. she did fine this morning, under all other variables being the same.
no, it does not feel like a lean startup. feels straight like a single cylinder startup with the rest of them picking up.
if she does this once in a blue moon, i can live with it. hammers on the engine, but it should be strong enough.
i am staying away from Phillips around here. i can use it on my truck, which does not care what it is, but around here, 66s are mostly very old gas stations, and i do not like old gas tanks. junk in them.

[dg370]

This has happened to me when I move the car in the driveway to wash it or change the oil and the ICE only runs for a few seconds. The next time the ICE fires up (usually the next morning) there is a thrashing noise and vibration. Here's a video when I captured the event:

You Tube

You Tube

I always let the ICE run for several minutes any time I move the car to avoid the problem.

[andym1978]

My occurrences (about 5 since I bought the car in June 2006) were similar to the video, but it appeared to not last as long as your occurrence. It may be because I was inside the car at the time, so only felt the worst of it. Thank you for the video. It's the first I've seen of this issue.

I have a laptop that I connect to the CAN bus to monitor sensors on my car (using the ELM327 adapter). Maybe I'll try to reproduce this condition and see if unusual readings appear.

[ukrkoz]

thanks, dg.
no, yours is much worse. yours sound like you have sticky lifters and they take extra time to develop pressure and pick up. hence the tap.
if you know what a gas flooded engine sounds like when it starts? that's what mine sounded like.

[Joe B]

Originally Posted by dg370

This has happened to me when I move the car in the driveway to wash it or change the oil and the ICE only runs for a few seconds. The next time the ICE fires up (usually the next morning) there is a thrashing noise and vibration. Here's a video when I captured the event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRY7eHgOJTc

I always let the ICE run for several minutes any time I move the car to avoid the problem.

Holy shit!
That's pretty bad!
Did you go to dealer service?
I haven't experienced that kind of problem but only have 4300 miles on the odometer.The car's been perfect.No rattles,noises,problems....yet..

[Frodo65]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

thanks, dg.
no, yours is much worse. yours sound like you have sticky lifters and they take extra time to develop pressure and pick up. hence the tap.
if you know what a gas flooded engine sounds like when it starts? that's what mine sounded like.

Except for the minor detail that the TCH ICE doesn't have hydraulic lifters - it's got bucket tappets that have no hydraulic adjustment.

[Tech1984]

dg370 pretty much nailed it with the description and the video.
We call it the driveway shuffle like moving the car over to let the teenager
get out and the ice only runs briefly, which is completely washing the cylinder walls
down with raw fuel. When restart comes, usually the next morning, it will start up
very rich and briefly misfire until it cleans itself out.
Yes, it sounds like hell, but just the laws of physics. Something that can't be helped
unless the ICE is allowed to warm up for several minutes before shut off.

[ukrkoz]

Originally Posted by Frodo65

Except for the minor detail that the TCH ICE doesn't have hydraulic lifters - it's got bucket tappets that have no hydraulic adjustment.

oh, what a surprise. do we still have to buy sets of shims to adjust gap? what is it with Toyota and total lack of desire to have adjustable gaps, like on Hondas?

Bucket tappet Bucket Tappet

Valve lifters that are hollow, cylindrical, and closed at one end and used with some overhead camshafts. The flat, closed end of the tappet (bottom of the bucket) rests against the Camshaft lobe with part of the Valve spring and Valve stem enclosed by the Cylinder. Called bucket tappets because they are shaped like upside-down buckets.

[andym1978]

Can't even use shims anymore with this engine. You need to buy new buckets of varying sizes. :/

@Tech1984
That explanation makes very good sense (best I've read so far). Thanks for the input!

[ukrkoz]

OMG. 15 minute job on Hondas.

though i appreciate tech's explanation, but wasn't this coming out of my mouth:

if you know what a gas flooded engine sounds like when it starts? that's what mine sounded like. aka,

it will start up very rich and briefly misfire until it cleans itself out.

same difference.

sorry guys. i am vane. but no, mine was not over saturated with fuel. normal parking, normal stay in the stable for 2 nights. big barraboom in the morning. guess, something did not click right in all the gears and electronics. whatever, it's gone.

[Frodo65]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

oh, what a surprise. do we still have to buy sets of shims to adjust gap? what is it with Toyota and total lack of desire to have adjustable gaps, like on Hondas?

Bucket tappet Bucket Tappet

Valve lifters that are hollow, cylindrical, and closed at one end and used with some overhead camshafts. The flat, closed end of the tappet (bottom of the bucket) rests against the Camshaft lobe with part of the Valve spring and Valve stem enclosed by the Cylinder. Called bucket tappets because they are shaped like upside-down buckets.

Yes, there's a whole ritual around checking clearance and installing appropriately-sized shim to get the clearance in spec.

The reality is that with modern metallurgy, the adjustment isn't needed until North of 100K miles, and even at that point isn't likely. Bucket tappets are cheaper to produce and result in a simpler head. Engineering trade-off, to be sure, but not one of the more obnoxious ones.