repercussions to offset speedometer

[ukrkoz]

some time ago i posted here that my speedo is lying by 4mph, showing higher speed than it really is, checked by gps.

i have posted this at green hybrid:

i posted before that my - and some other member here too - speedo is off by 4mph. at 44 mph on speedo, real speed is 40, tested by gps.
i finally relaized what it does to mpg.
ok, many areas in the country have 40 mph speed limit, right? very common.
say, i am coasting at 41 mph. Emode should stay on, correct? or even at 40mph.
in reality, i am dragging at 36 mph and am menace to drivers behind me.

ok, so i am nice to drivers behind me, and aware of 4mph offset on my speedo. i bring speed up to 45mph on speedo, which is, in reality, 41 vehicle speed.

but my TCH thinks i am above the magic 42mph limit, and kicks out of Emode.

i guess by now, you got the point. you either dragging, or lowering your mpg.

oh, what's that? go get it adjusted by dealer? and who's gonna pay for it?

followed by this:

ok, went to a dealer. spoke with a quite nice guy, Dan. here's the thing. Toyota is allowed 3-5 miles per hour speedo discrepancy. that's it. basically, at 40mph speed limit, you can shove it.


ok, folks, listen. 4mph at 40 mph is a 10% error. simple math.

fortunately, we have a smart member there, who had this figured:

You only worried about the mph... Wow did you miss something... Being 5 - 10 % off in mph also says they are off in distance, so if we make a small assumption as I don't know exactly how it effects distance (I think it means the same thing though). So after 36000 miles 5 % = 1800 miles short and 10% means 3600 miles short. So we in reality our 36000 mile warranty is only some where between 32400 - 34200 miles... Now if we multiply that by some number of cars (total sold in US as an example). Makes a difference on their bottom line doesn't it... Aren't they so nice....

and he's darn right. if you have offset speedo, then you have offset odometer too. at 10% error, it's 3600 miles ahead of time your bumper to bumper ends, and 6 000 miles ahead of time your powertrain ends.

any takers to start a riot on this?

[arabianobsession]

^You're assuming Toyota is the only manufacturer to have this "problem", and in reality, they aren't. My husband's Maxima is 3 mph fast on the speedo, so is my 2011 Camry SE. My old 98 Sunfire was 2 mph fast.

I could go on, but I won't. Almost every single car out there is going to be a little off. If you're going to start a riot on Toyota, then you might as well start a riot on every single car manufacturer out there.

Good luck...

[ukrkoz]

no, i do not assume it's only Toyota. it is known fact that almost all makes have this, and not all TCHs do. and it is not assumption, but simple arythmetics, to see how this shortens warranty and benefits manufacturer. why speedo is off by 10% in 21st century car? and why is it OK to even have that tolerance allowed? because people don't care. ignorance, conformism, and lack of desire to stand up for yourself permits this. and it starts with small, like this, and ends with big - like crappy governments, corruption, wars etc.

[Camlo11]

I agree with ukrkoz, and as a Toyota owner I am unconcerned about the other brands. It's dishonest and untenable how we the consumers are hosed by auto manufacturers. If they are allowed a 3-5 mile/hour discrepancy, it should be in our favor, not theirs.

We are being cheated out of warranted miles even though we paid for them in the price of the car. Misleading advertising and promise!

I plan to check my new Camry Hybrid against GPS and go on record that it is not right. If I end up having to pay a repair bill out of warranty because of this issue, I will take legal action!

I'll check the speedo at various speeds and report back to the forum.

[cdn_tch]

Originally Posted by Camlo11

I agree with ukrkoz, and as a Toyota owner I am unconcerned about the other brands. It's dishonest and untenable how we the consumers are hosed by auto manufacturers. If they are allowed a 3-5 mile/hour discrepancy, it should be in our favor, not theirs.

We are being cheated out of warranted miles even though we paid for them in the price of the car. Misleading advertising and promise!

I plan to check my new Camry Hybrid against GPS and go on record that it is not right. If I end up having to pay a repair bill out of warranty because of this issue, I will take legal action!

I'll check the speedo at various speeds and report back to the forum.

Make sure you're checking the odometer, not the speedometer. It's the odometer which is what your warranty is based on. And no, they do not necessarily correlate!

[arabianobsession]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

no, i do not assume it's only Toyota. it is known fact that almost all makes have this, and not all TCHs do. and it is not assumption, but simple arythmetics, to see how this shortens warranty and benefits manufacturer. why speedo is off by 10% in 21st century car? and why is it OK to even have that tolerance allowed? because people don't care. ignorance, conformism, and lack of desire to stand up for yourself permits this. and it starts with small, like this, and ends with big - like crappy governments, corruption, wars etc.

Originally Posted by Camlo11

I agree with ukrkoz, and as a Toyota owner I am unconcerned about the other brands. It's dishonest and untenable how we the consumers are hosed by auto manufacturers. If they are allowed a 3-5 mile/hour discrepancy, it should be in our favor, not theirs.

We are being cheated out of warranted miles even though we paid for them in the price of the car. Misleading advertising and promise!

I plan to check my new Camry Hybrid against GPS and go on record that it is not right. If I end up having to pay a repair bill out of warranty because of this issue, I will take legal action!

I'll check the speedo at various speeds and report back to the forum.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. If that warranty mileage means so much to you, and you're convinced something is going to break right after 36,000 miles, why not get an extended warranty until, say 50,000 miles? Those ones are cheap.

I know-you're going to say "But we got cheated out of those miles! I don't want to pay extra for that!"

Think of it this way-if people have to wait until 2013 to sue Toyota for unintended acceleration, how long are you going to have to wait for something as small as this? 2015? 2017? By then you more than likely still won't have the same car, it will be long gone. My .02

[Camlo11]

arabian obsession, unfortunately you are right on the issue of legal action that takes forever to bring to closure. It's just irritating as hell that consumers are taken advantage of.

And if you did not notice, in the aggregate, this issue is NOT a molehill, and to you it might not be big deal but that does not preclude others from feeling it's a rip-off!

[arabianobsession]

Originally Posted by Camlo11

arabian obsession, unfortunately you are right on the issue of legal action that takes forever to bring to closure. It's just irritating as hell that consumers are taken advantage of.

And if you did not notice, in the aggregate, this issue is NOT a molehill, and to you it might not be big deal but that does not preclude others from feeling it's a rip-off!

Like I've said, this is my opinion only. In all honesty, I could care less if the speedo is off 2-3 mph. I used to have a car that was 15 mph off because it had the incorrect speedo gear in it after a powertrain swap.

BUT, that being said, don't be surprised if you bring this up to someone higher up and they A) Look at you weird B) Laugh or C) Don't care. And like I also said before, good luck. You're going to need it.

[Camlo11]

Originally Posted by arabianobsession

Like I've said, this is my opinion only. In all honesty, I could care less if the speedo is off 2-3 mph. I used to have a car that was 15 mph off because it had the incorrect speedo gear in it after a powertrain swap.

BUT, that being said, don't be surprised if you bring this up to someone higher up and they A) Look at you weird B) Laugh or C) Don't care. And like I also said before, good luck. You're going to need it.

Or, a more optimistic D) Extend warranty beyond 36 and 60 months.

[razol]

My speedo is off by 5 MPH as tested by a friend who is a police officer, but it reports high which tends make me drive more legally. I see it is a good thing. I do no obsesses over the MPG, this car gets top tier fuel economy, I am not going to fret over what could be perhaps another 1 MPG.

I have manythings to worry about in my life, this is not one of them.

[ukrkoz]

sure. glad running out of powertrain warranty 7 000 miles ahead of time does not upset you. indeed, not worth worrying about.

[ukrkoz]

Got off the phone with service adviser:

"nothing wrong with the speedo"

I asked how they checked it and they used a stopwatch and mile markers. I think this was previously mentioned.

I told him (again) that I checked it with 3 different GPS units and the speed was way faster than what the vehicle was in real life. (41mph = 37mph)

He said "well that's how THEY (toyota) tell us how to check it"

So essentially Toyota is purposefully introducing human error into the testing instead of using a readily available electronic device.

Does the stock navigation have a speed read out? On my old Mazda I could see the vehicle speed according to GPS....

Anyhow I will say I'm disappointed (with the testing method) but will probably go to taller tires next time I get them.

-Mike





Re: 4 mph - does it do any difference. They, basically, kicked me back to dealer and their "stopwatch in the hand technique". I have no reason to doubt her, apparently, DOT has quite a tolerance for faulty speedometers. As I am NOT paying dealership to have this fixed, screw it, I'll just drive like as if that speedo is working right, especially on 40mph limits.

Response (Anita Mouton) 06/23/2011 08:24 AM
Dear Mr. Lesko:

We apologize for your concern with speedometer in your 2007 CamryHybrid.

Because we are unable to directly inspect your vehicle, we are not in a position to provide a technical diagnosis of the vehicle. In order to properly assess your concerns, we recommend working with the Service Department at your local Toyota dealership to further evaluate your Camry. Our dealerships possess specialized technical knowledge in the areas of diagnosis and repair, and would have the opportunity to review you vehicle first hand. Also, if necessary, we provide additional support to assist our technicians in resolving unusual vehicle concerns.

The speedometer reading in your vehicle is based on the wheel rotation speed and conforms to Department of Transportation requirements. The GPS speed rating is not directly connected to your wheel speed and thus the readings will likely vary. The fact that the reading differ is not indication enough that your speedometer is not within the acceptable range.

We do rely on our dealership technicians to inspect any concern, provide a diagnosis and to make the necessary repair recommendations. The dealership also has access to technical assistance for any concern they are unable to resolve.

Please note there may be a 8%-10% variance in the speedometer, which is within acceptable parameters and with DOT (Department of Transportation) specifications.

Each Toyota dealership has a Customer Relations Manager on staff to assist you with any questions or concerns you may have regarding the diagnosis. Please feel free to contact the Customer relations Manager at the dealership where you service your Camry Hybrid with any questions or concerns.

Your email has been documented at our National Headquarters under file #1106230407.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us via email by using the following link, http://www.toyota.com/help/contactus.html, or by calling 800-331-4331. We are available from 5 AM to 6 PM, Pacific Time, Monday through Friday and from 7 AM to 4 PM on Saturday.
Sincerely,
Anita Mouton
Toyota Customer Experience

[Dante's Taco]

I know we are comparing apples to oranges here, but my "stock" Tacoma tires made the same error. However, since going 1 size up
(245/75/R16 to 265/75/R16) I am now dead on, by GPS, vehicle speedo, and those nice radar signs right before the construction zone.

But here's the bigger question: Does it matter. So you loose 6 or 7 k out of the 60 k basic. It's a Toyota. Presumably you bought it b/c you thought / believe / were told these vehicles can go much farther than that.
Like many 100's of thousands of miles / km.

I'm at 142,000 + km. Waaayyy out of ANY warranty. and it purrs like a kitten.

I'm just saying In the grand scheme of things, I think you will be ok.

Honda had this issue (& associated legal action & "extended" warranty as a result for some Civics, IIRC). What a colossal waste of legal time.

I service my own vehicle. It doesn't worry me after 5 trouble free years.

Hope you come to the same conclusion

G

[fourwd1]

Originally Posted by Dante's Taco

I know we are comparing apples to oranges here, but my "stock" Tacoma tires made the same error. However, since going 1 size up
(245/75/R16 to 265/75/R16) I am now dead on, by GPS, vehicle speedo, and those nice radar signs right before the construction zone.

You may have hit the issue that no one else has asked.
Is the OP running stock tire size?
Taller or shorter tires will throw the speedo and odo off.
It will be off by a percentage of the actual speed, not a set/constant value.

[sbp]

Newbie here. We just bought a CPO 09 TCH last week. Very impressed with the car.

From what I have gathered over the years, the speedo error issue is a design feature (by law?) on German vehicles to ensure speeding tickets were not incurred due to manufacturer error. Instead of a percentage it is an offset (3-5 mph reported speed higher than actual). It does not impact odo accuracy on the various vehicles that I've owned. This is easy enough to check with an independant GPS unit or even using milemarkers on the interstate. I will check on my TCH and report back.

I remember realizing that my brand new 1990 Toyota Corrolla had an error of 5 mph a few months after I bought it. I complained to my Toyota service department and they said that was an acceptable error.