Camry HybridDiscussion area for the Toyota Camry Hybrid. Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving Americas favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.
2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid vs 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid
I see Consumer Reports has now published a review of the 2013 FFH and if you have an on line subscription you can compare it to the TCH they tested last year. Not sure how much you can see without a subscription, but here is the link.
They gave the FFH an overall score of 87 compared to 93 for the TCH. The Camry hybrid retains its position as the top rated sedan. The FFH is not a recommended buy even though the score is not that bad.
Some highlights. The FFH was given an overall fuel economy rating of 39 mpg compared to 38 for the Camry. The cruising range rating for the TCH was much better due to the larger fuel tank, 650 miles compared to 520 on the FFH. Estimated annual fuel cost was $10 lower on the FFH. 0-60 acceleration time was better in the TCH at 7.6 seconds vs 8.3 for the FFH. The non hybrid Titanium Fusion with the 2.0 L turbo only did slightly better than the TCH at 7.4 seconds. It is supposed to have 231 HP? Perhaps Ford is stretching the HP rating a bit, like they do with fuel economy... Braking was slightly better on the TCH, while handling was slightly better on the FFH.
I think the elephant in the room though given the 787 Dreamliner plight, is the long term reliability of the LiIon batteries in the FFH. Hopefully they are not made by Yusa. At least in a car you don't fall out of the sky if the batteries start on fire. Should have time to stop and get out...
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2012 Camry XLE Hybrid
Last edited by Ron AKA; 01-23-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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That's a interesting comparison between the two cars. Consumer Reports may lean more positive on grading the TCH for it's history of being a well built car since 2007.
I found this from the link you provided where Consumer Reports talks about the Ford Fusion's build quality.
Our test cars usually have few, if any, defects. And the Fusion’s attractive interior has mostly high-quality materials. But we have been surprised at the number of fit-and-finish flaws we’ve found in our Fusions, especially in our pricey Titanium version. Its front doors were misaligned. Numerous trim pieces don’t line up. And the headliner was lumpy around the sunroof and ragged at the forward edge. In our SE version, the hood didn’t line up. In all three of our Fusions, the interior plastic molding had some sharp edges and the center-console lid seemed flimsy.
If you want to buy a Fusion, it might be worth waiting a year or two. We hope Ford will sort out those flaws soon.
We drove the FFH and as I've said elsewhere in this forum, if the driving experience and feel had been the sole determining factors in our decision, that's the car we would have bought.
My daughter-in-law asked yesterday how I liked the new car and I said that it was one that was bought with my head, not heart. She asked if that meant I didn't like it and I said not at all because it does what it is supposed to do quite well but it just isn't a "driver's car".
I was in the waiting room of my grandkid's dentist yesterday since I had to take them. While killing time, there was a December issue of Motor Trend where they rated 6 mid-size sedans. The Fusion took 2nd place to the Passat while the Camry(non-hybrid) took 5th. They felt like Toyota mailed it in with the Camry in a number of areas, ride and interior being the two main ones that come to mind.
'The FFH is not a recommended buy even though the score is not that bad."
CR states that it doesn't recommend a vehicle until enough time has passed to establish its reliability. So far, reliablity for the FFH hasn't been reported as an issue, but it's still early in the game. There hasn't been one issue yet with mine after 3500 miles.
Wait until each vehicle is four years old, then test it for economy, fit, finish, and current value. This is one of those no-brainers.
Yep. Don't forget to see what the Li ion is doing in 4 yrs and then in 8 yrs etc. Even if there are no fires etc I will not be surprised to see a fall off in performance... not enough though to trigger a warranty claim.
It's nice to see that the cars are close, and I appreciate Ford's efforts to offer a hybrid, but I don't see why they went with a Li ion. Maybe they wanted to distance themselves from the Toyota product which has a strong grip on the market. Still it's a big risk for the customers and the company if things don't go right.
Like I mentioned at the top of the thread below, the FFH hybrid system is also somehow bigger and heavier than the Camry, even with the lithium battery. Doesn't sound like better technology so far... 2012 Camry Hybrid vs. 2013 Fusion Hybrid
Yep. Don't forget to see what the Li ion is doing in 4 yrs and then in 8 yrs etc. Even if there are no fires etc I will not be surprised to see a fall off in performance... not enough though to trigger a warranty claim.
It's nice to see that the cars are close, and I appreciate Ford's efforts to offer a hybrid, but I don't see why they went with a Li ion. Maybe they wanted to distance themselves from the Toyota product which has a strong grip on the market. Still it's a big risk for the customers and the company if things don't go right.
The Prius plugin has a lithium ion battery. That is where this technology is going.
My FFH research brought me there as well. Interesting Ford was recommending premium unleaded in order to achieve competitive fuel economy numbers. Premium, that's a real savings!
My FFH research brought me there as well. Interesting Ford was recommending premium unleaded in order to achieve competitive fuel economy numbers. Premium, that's a real savings!
I was excited about the FFH also. But the local dealership didn't have one for me to drive. They called me once with one but it was gone in a couple of days. I think the switch to Li ion battery allows the electric motor to operate at up to 62 mph whereas my Camry seems to have a ceiling at around 40. Theoretically that would appear to give the FFH an advantage in mpg as 60 mph is kind of an upper limit if you plan to get 40+ mpg. However, this may cause the battery to be discharged and the number of recharging events may actually cause you to be overall less efficient. I'm not an engineer so I would be interested if anyone had an opinion on this. But the higher operating range for the electric motor may be how Ford was able to game the MPG measurement.
I would suggest the author of that article is making as many presumptions as anyone else. He seems to have concluded that the root cause of the problem is the battery, and it is not only the LiIon battery, but it is the specific type of LiIon. And, further than that assumption, some type of LiIon are immune from the problem, and others are not. I would suggest it is a little premature to come to all those conclusions. It is premature to speculate however that the LiIon technology is mature and safe. Too many red flags at the moment. As with other new technologies, time will tell the truth.
I think the switch to Li ion battery allows the electric motor to operate at up to 62 mph whereas my Camry seems to have a ceiling at around 40. Theoretically that would appear to give the FFH an advantage in mpg as 60 mph is kind of an upper limit if you plan to get 40+ mpg. However, this may cause the battery to be discharged and the number of recharging events may actually cause you to be overall less efficient. I'm not an engineer so I would be interested if anyone had an opinion on this. But the higher operating range for the electric motor may be how Ford was able to game the MPG measurement.
In hybrids operation in EV mode is not the most efficient way to power the car. Why is this? The motor generators operate on AC voltage up to 600+ volts. The battery operates on DC voltage of around 245 volts. All the energy in a hybrid comes from the ICE. To run on electricity, you have to convert the high voltage AC to DC and charge the battery. To get power from the battery to the wheels you have to convert it from DC back to high voltage AC. There are losses in that two way conversion. Probably 25% or more of the energy is lost in the conversion. That is why you have a separate cooling system for the inverter. The losses show up as heat that has to be disposed of.
If you can run the ICE at maximum efficiency you are better to use that power directly, instead of converting it to DC and back to AC and suffering those losses.
Short story? The higher EV speed of the Ford is just a marketing gimmick. The 39 vs 38 mpg is insignificant, and probably can be attributed to the smaller engine and power of the FFH compared to the TCH.
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