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Camry Hybrid Discussion area for the Toyota Camry Hybrid. Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving Americas favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.

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Old 01-27-2013, 06:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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USA Mod & Hack Section

Is there a mod / hack section that I should be posting this on?

I have access to an additional hybrid battery pack that came out of a 2007 Camry.

Has anyone tried to double the battery capability of the Camry Hybrid?

I know that the Prius has done it and also made a plug in model.

I am looking to do the same with mine. 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE

I am also wondering if anyone has been able to do any mods that would allow the all electric mode to be used up to about 35 mph? Right now one has to start out from a stop so slowly that you piss off the other drivers behind you. I have done it but am usually passed by someone on a bicycle before I get there.

I am also going to be installing an EGT Gauge and working with HHO, EFIE, MAF & MAP adjusters using a setup from hybridconversions.com.

I am currently going to be using the setup from Innovative Motorsports OT-2 / LC-1 Kit: OBD-II & Wideband AFR WiFi Interface to be able to log my efforts.

Last edited by Megiddo; 01-27-2013 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Megiddo View Post
I have access to an additional hybrid battery pack that came out of a 2007 Camry. Has anyone tried to double the battery capability of the Camry Hybrid? I know that the Prius has done it and also made a plug in model. I am looking to do the same with mine. 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid LE

I am also wondering if anyone has been able to do any mods that would allow the all electric mode to be used up to about 35 mph? Right now one has to start out from a stop so slowly that you piss off the other drivers behind you. I have done it but am usually passed by someone on a bicycle before I get there.
Some thoughts:

The Camry can do about 1.5-2.0 miles on the battery. If you double the capacity you may do 3-4 miles. If you want to plug it in, then you will need a lot more than double that to make it worthwhile.

All the energy in a hybrid is generated by the gas engine. Any electricity is generated as AC - up to 600+ volts. To be stored in a battery it has to be reduced in voltage and converted to DC of about 250 volts. There is a loss of energy associated with this converion. That is the reason you have a cooling circuit for the inverter as well as the gas engine -- to get rid of the waste heat. Then, when you want to use that DC power you have to convert it back to AC, and then increase the voltage again. Similar losses occur. In total you will waste in the order of 25% or more of the energy to make the complete round trip conversion.

The bottom line is that running on DC is not your most efficient way to get down the road. It only makes obvious sense when you recover braking energy which if you didn't store it in the battery you would lose 100% of it. By storing you only waste 25%.

What I am getting to is that the battery on a hybrid does not have to be really big. In fact you do not really want to use it, unless it is the least of the energy loss evils.

I don't know how to make the control switch on EV any less sensitive, other than by using the ECO Mode. You would probably have to change the control computer, if that even can be done. Keep in mind that the car control system is designed to maximize overall efficiency. If the gas engine can make the power more efficiently, it makes sense to switch from electic to gas. That is what the computer is trying to do.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
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So you are saying that I would have to fill the trunk with a lot of AA's to make it work. lol
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:38 AM   #4 (permalink)
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So you are saying that I would have to fill the trunk with a lot of AA's to make it work. lol
Yes, I think that is why auto makers doing the plug in thing go for the potentially more dangerous LiIon batteries. Power storage density is much higher.

And I think the original hybrid battery packs were just consumer NiMH AA batteries. Not so sure that they are not still in that shape but optimized for hybrid car use.

The LiIon packs being used are the prismatic shape, and are the ones that are in trouble in the Dreamliner. It must be much harder to keep them cool when they are so densely packed.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Well then I guess I will put my money into the EGT and Innovative Motorsports products and get ready to add the hydrogen.

I am not jumping into this (HHO Stuff) blindly because I have been researching it out for a little over 6 years and have even built a few of my own cells. I do know one very important thing is to make sure there is no drastic increase in the EGT because you will burn out your O2 sensors quickly.

I somehow have to construct a separate area in the trunk that will accommodate the HHO production as I would like to keep it vented also like the batteries are except for using an external venting process.

I thought about putting it in the engine area but the amount of electricity in the engine compartment is way more than in the trunk and the trunk leads it self to better venting.

If someone could direct me to a place to purchase (download) a complete 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid wiring diagram that would be great. I have only found one for the 2007 to 2009 models here.

http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.p...-repair-manual
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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wow, u guys remind me of the people on the phone forums that use their phones seemingly for experimentation; rooting, installing ROM's. Geez, i just USE my stuff--I don't play with it. I MUST be a very atypical forum member of all the tech forums.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:51 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Some additional comments:

The TCH already uses closed loop tuning of the fuel air ratio. You can't improve on it.

It takes more energy to separate the oxygen and hydrogen in water than you will get when you combine them again. It is a net loss of energy.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The only way I could see one of those hydrogen unit deals working is to have a solar powered unit making it at home and swapping tanks in your car, no on board generation. This would be very low pressure though I would think, maybe just lease a tank at a welding supply shop or some such?

I personally would just buy a Nissan leaf or if you really want range and style the Tesla Model S. If you are not happy with what Toyota came up with. I am a big fan of the Tesla, just couldn't justify it right now. If they can get the price down to about 40k I would probably jump on it.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1812 View Post
wow, u guys remind me of the people on the phone forums that use their phones seemingly for experimentation; rooting, installing ROM's. Geez, i just USE my stuff--I don't play with it. I MUST be a very atypical forum member of all the tech forums.

This is off topic but I will comment on it anyway. Rooting and installing roms is not experimentation usually. It is to turn on features that the carriers have taken away frome you. The roms allow a very high level of performance and customization. Who wouldn't like to have a phone with no bloatware, faster than stock with much better battery life to boot? It is what they should be putting out anyway. That is why in large part I have gone with the "google" phones the last two times, much easier to "fix"
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This is off topic but I will comment on it anyway. Rooting and installing roms is not experimentation usually. It is to turn on features that the carriers have taken away frome you. The roms allow a very high level of performance and customization. Who wouldn't like to have a phone with no bloatware, faster than stock with much better battery life to boot? It is what they should be putting out anyway. That is why in large part I have gone with the "google" phones the last two times, much easier to "fix"
Well...my Note 2 is so fast if it were any faster it would be doing things before I asked it to. Bloatware, while annoying on some level, isn't so much of an issue that I feel compelled to root to remove it all from the phone. I disable most of it. My phone has plenty of speed and storage space, so none of that is of any practical consequence to me. EVERY DAY, I read about people having countless questions AFTER or DURING their rooting. Thanks, but no thanks. I believe in the KISS principle.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Care to check out my phone thread so we can keep this on topic and not thread jack? --- Motorola Droid
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Some additional comments:

The TCH already uses closed loop tuning of the fuel air ratio. You can't improve on it.

It takes more energy to separate the oxygen and hydrogen in water than you will get when you combine them again. It is a net loss of energy.
Most newer vehicles use closed loop tuning with wide-band O2 sensors. I believe that you can improve on it. Especially with the use of EFIE and MAP/MAF controllers. What supporting information would you have that I could look at that proves your point? Do not take this the wrong way as I am always being corrected and am willing to learn.

I don't know how much you know about the HHO process, but I have done testing on my own older vehicle (98 Pontiac Grand Prix Supercharged V6) and not only did the addition of very little HHO gas make my car run much smoother, but I also achieved about 2-3 miles per gallon increase and that is only with about 1-2 lpm flowing.

Thanks to the other guys for being able to recognize a thread jack and nipping it in the bud. I would really like to stay on track here and anywhere else in the forums to be able to obtain and disseminate information that is reliable and not cluttered up with crap.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think if you really want to fine tune your combustion control you would install a carbon monoxide sensor in addition to the oxygen sensor. When you get excess air down to very minimum levels carbon monoxide goes up quite rapidly. The trick is to tune down air until CO starts to go up, but does not spike. Probably can only be done under steady state conditions, and will be frequently overridden by just O2 trim. There is also the emissions to consider. Too little air you make too much CO. Too much air you make too much NOx. But keep in mind Toyota knows all this stuff and more. There is no conspiracy to burn fuel for the oil companies. They are already pushing technology to the limit of current knowledge/technology, and willingness of the customer to pay for it. For example they even have systems which go beyond simple control of fuel air ratio:

"A new water-cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system helps to ensure the lowest possible emissions at all vehicle speeds and helps increase fuel efficiency. By cooling and controlling exhaust gas injected into each cylinder, the system eliminates the need to richen the air-fuel mixture to control cylinder temperatures."

The government is pushing more and more for fuel economy. One way to do it is to simply reduce engine and HP choices, to bring average fuel consumption down. Auto manufacturers do not want to do that of course. They want to sell bigger and more expensive vehicles, not roller skates with an engine. They are not going to leave any stone unturned, especially the simple ones.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:52 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think if you really want to fine tune your combustion control you would install a carbon monoxide sensor in addition to the oxygen sensor. When you get excess air down to very minimum levels carbon monoxide goes up quite rapidly. The trick is to tune down air until CO starts to go up, but does not spike. Probably can only be done under steady state conditions, and will be frequently overridden by just O2 trim. There is also the emissions to consider. Too little air you make too much CO. Too much air you make too much NOx.
There is no need for a CO sensor. Here is the reason. The exhaust emissions from the car are in a stable range with stock controls. Agreed? A vehicle running on straight HHO will produce water and vapor in the exhaust. Agreed? So when the HHO mixture is added to the stock setup then you would not increase the amount of CO produced (in fact it would decrease) therefore no sensor is needed. You only need to watch the EGT because HHO burns a lot hotter.

Quote:
But keep in mind Toyota knows all this stuff and more. There is no conspiracy to burn fuel for the oil companies. They are already pushing technology to the limit of current knowledge/technology, and willingness of the customer to pay for it. For example they even have systems which go beyond simple control of fuel air ratio:
What do you think this country's economy is run by? If our Army went over to Iraq and destroyed all of there opium fields, it would destroy their economy. Oil is just our way of making money in the US. If a person could build a 100 mpg Fiero back when I was 20 an it be on the cover of Hot Rod Magazine then answer me this? Why aren't the major car companies building them also? Simple, because they want us to use gas not save it.

Quote:
"A new water-cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system helps to ensure the lowest possible emissions at all vehicle speeds and helps increase fuel efficiency. By cooling and controlling exhaust gas injected into each cylinder, the system eliminates the need to richen the air-fuel mixture to control cylinder temperatures."
Answered above.

Quote:
The government is pushing more and more for fuel economy. One way to do it is to simply reduce engine and HP choices, to bring average fuel consumption down. Auto manufacturers do not want to do that of course. They want to sell bigger and more expensive vehicles, not roller skates with an engine. They are not going to leave any stone unturned, especially the simple ones.
Answered above.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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My original questions was,

I am also wondering if anyone has been able to do any mods that would allow the all electric mode to be used up to about 35 mph?

Are there ANY OTHER mods that would be beneficial, like the Prius has? People have been modding them since they came out.
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