New Camry Sportswagon?

[chasman]

Hello All,

Is it likely that Toyota will produce a Camry sportswagon with updated performance and safety equipment? It has been 10 years since the last USA Camry wagon.

Toyota/Lexus/Scion currently does not have a single model to compete with:

• Audi A4/A6
• BMW 325/525
• Mazda 3/6
• Mercedes C320/E320
• Saab 9-3/9-5 Aero,
• Subaru WRX, Legacy GT
• Volvo V50/70
• VW Jetta/Passat

We have thoroughly enjoyed our two Toyota wagons but have no interest in:

- Toyota Matrix:

• Noisy engine, below avg. acceleration.
• “Awkward driving position.” Tall, long-legged drivers (especially those with larger shoe sizes) may find that they cannot stretch out their left leg as the left front wheel well juts too far into the driver's space.
• Reduced cargo capacity due to "stylish" roofline.
• Not on IIHS Top Safety Pick Awards List.

- Any SUV:

• Higher center of gravity
• Less agile
• Higher potential for rollover
• Higher Cd
• More weight = slower acceleration, longer braking distance
• Lower MPG
• Mechanically more complex
• Larger rear blind spots

[chasman]

Please note: Original question has been revised.
Thanks!

[CamryV6]

Hi chasman,

I don't drive a wagon and never drive one before(currently driving 02 Camry XLE V6), and I don't know if Toyota is going to make a Camry sportswagon or not. But I THINK Subaru Legacy Wagon or Outback XT might have what you want.

To be honest, I never drive a Subaru before(well...once within few mins, and it was 90s subaru legacy non-wagon), I saw these information from other forums.

- Any SUV:

• Higher center of gravity
• Lower center of gravity for Subaru
• Less agile
• More agile
• Higher potential for rollover
• Should have lower potential for rollover than SUV(due to lower center of gravity)
• Higher Cd
• 0.32 for wagon and 0.34 for outback, not sure which SUV you comparing to.
• More weight = slower acceleration, longer braking distance
• Not sure
• Lower MPG
• Not lower MPG due to turbo charged+AWD(there's non-turbo with less power)
• Mechanically more complex
• Not sure
• Larger rear blind spots
• Not sure(should be less than SUVs)

If you are also looking for ground clearance, I heard Outbacks have same ground clearance with some of the SUVs. The 06 Legacy has won IIHS Top Safety Picks 2006(legacy wagon should be the same, but I could be wrong). You can check out nasioc.com or legacygt.com for more information.

It's the best alternative I can think of...I know there are more choice out there.

Talking about Toyota...personally, I think Toyota(stock Camry) lack of power and handling(No offence to Toyota lovers. I know it'll be changed soon, and I still LOVE my 02 Camry by the way. They are sooooooo COMFORTABLE and QUIET which I like a lot.)


Hope you will find the car you want.

Jerry

[CamryV6]

Sorry, didn't see the edited one when I posted. Now I see you have legacy GT in the list. I would also consider reliability issues with those cars. I saw VW's reliability isn't good somewhere, but again...I could be wrong.


Jerry

[chasman]

Thanks for the reply Jerry!

I would also consider reliability issues with those cars. I saw VW's reliability isn't good somewhere…

Reliability of some of these models may be a consideration. However, what good is a reliable car that doesn't provide sufficient fit/comfort and/or protection for your family/loved-ones?

What wagon does Toyota offer that competes in the areas of fit/comfort, accident avoidance/performance, crash protection, versatility, and fuel efficiency?

[Phatfantom68]

I highly doubt Toyota will ever make a gen 6 camry wagon. There is a reason Toyota does everything they do, and they decided to get rid of Camry wagon's in the States because of declining sales. If anything, Toyota should make a wagon on the IS platform and market it as a Lexus.

Wagons are defninitely out of date, and calling any Camry a "sport wagon" isn't gonna work. With the models you mentioned above, when I think of them, the first thing that pops up into my head is power, performance, and style. When MOST people think of a Camry, I doubt they will ever think of power, performance, or style. The past 5 generations of the camry have been mid-sized family crusiers. The Camry didn't have a nice suspension or a lot of horsepower because, face it, most people aren't going to drive like Michael Schumacher on the way to the grocery store.

I do not think that the image of the Camry is gonna to go from "plain vanilla family sedan" to "European sport sedan" with the new generation, and therefore, marketing a new "sport wagon" based on the Camry would not be practical for Toyota.

As for wagons, Toyota only offers the underpowered Matrix/xA, and the xB. Wagons really aren't Toyota's thing, and its not like they need to sell wagons to compete with other automakers.

[chasman]

Thanks for the detailed reply Phatfantom68!

"If anything, Toyota should make a wagon on the IS platform and market it as a Lexus."
They did just that from 2002-2005 - the Lexus IS300 Sportcross. It didn't sell well as it was more of a hatchback. It didn't have the interior space of a wagon. It was also very expensive to insure as minor fender benders typically caused significant repair costs. http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/ke.kb.s...ranceA;article

"Wagons are definitely out of date...."
Apparently, Audi, BMW, Mazda, Mercedes, Saab, Subaru, Volvo, & VW do not think so. After Katrina $3/gal gas, SUV sales have significantly declined. See Links:
"The Decline of the SUV
Sales of the SUV -- once heralded as the savior of the American car industry -- plummeted this past year to their lowest level since 1998. And most industry analysts said this could be the end for the SUV's popularity -- marking a huge shift in auto trends." http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sec...ive&id=3794787

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=5779
With the uncertainty of Iran's nuclear program currently a top news story, expect to see gas prices rise again. See Links:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/13679428.htm
http://www.forbes.com/business/manuf...ap2464764.html

"... calling any Camry a "sport wagon" isn't gonna work.
Agreed. It will need to actually be a sportwagon. Attempting to market styling without substance will have a low probability of success. Such a new model would need to have genuine agile performance.

"When MOST people think of a Camry, I doubt they will ever think of power, performance, or style. The past 5 generations of the camry have been mid-sized family cruisers."

"I do not think that the image of the Camry is gonna to go from "plain vanilla family sedan" to "European sport sedan" with the new generation, and therefore, marketing a new "sport wagon" based on the Camry would not be practical for Toyota."

Simply because past generations were "family cruisers" does not mean that all future generations must follow the same uninspiring path. It may be helpful to choose a different name better suited to such a sportswagon to distance the new model from the Camry's stogy image.

Wagons really aren't Toyota's thing, and its not like they need to sell wagons to compete with other automakers.
I'm sure Subaru, Volvo and others greatly appreciate Toyota giving away this segment of the market to them.

So, what will be Toyota's answer for those who seek a well-rounded wagon?

[drunken_panda]

They are going to have an IS wagon, like the Sportscross of the previous gen IS. Toyota not has a 20% stake in Subu, so maybe we will see some subie creep into Toyota's stable. We will see.

[chasman]

Originally Posted by drunken_panda

They are going to have an IS wagon, like the Sportscross of the previous gen IS. Toyota not has a 20% stake in Subu, so maybe we will see some subie creep into Toyota's stable. We will see.

Per the following April 15, 2005 article:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News_Article.asp?NA_ID=214571
"In the nearer future, Lexus is also planning an estate version of the new IS and, in two to three years’ time..."

12-28-2005 News item:
http://my.is/forums/showthread.php?t...ighlight=wagon

If memory serves me correctly: GM sold its 20% stake in Subaru. Toyota purchased half of that stake - 10% of Subaru.

[chasman]

Originally Posted by drunken_panda

Toyota not has a 20% stake in Subu, so maybe we will see some subie creep into Toyota's stable. We will see.

Hi drunken_panda,

I would not be surprised either. See below:
"Toyota to outsource redesign to Fuji Heavy"
November 9, 2005
Reuters
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...08/147791.html

Has anyone heard which "existing Toyota model" will be redesigned by Fuji/Subaru?

[chasman]

Hi All,

FWIW, the info below shows how the Highlander SUV (based on the Camry drivetrain) compares to the Camry:

Per CR's performance comparison chart:
04 Highlander V6 auto 5 230hp 3.3L V6 19 mpg
8.8 sec1
16.9 sec @ 83 mph
137 ft2
48.5 mph3
02 Camry V6 auto 4 192hp 3.0L V6 20 mpg 8.7 sec
16.8 sec @ 84 mph
128 ft
51.0 mph
1 = 0 to 60 mph
2 = 60 to 0 mph
3 = Maximum accident avoidance maneuver speed

The Camry is the better choice for both braking distance (9 ft shorter) and maximum accident avoidance maneuver speed.

Additionally, per CR Model Overview:

2004 Limited 4-door SUV AWD, 3.3-liter V6, 5-speed automatic

• Below avg economy - 19 MPG
• "Lows: Agility"
• Below avg headlights
• Avg emergency handling

Per CR Test Report:
"The Highlander isn't as nimble as some competing models, such as the BMW X3 or Subaru Outback. Body lean is noticeable but not excessive. The light steering is precise and responsive. At its handling limits, the Highlander feels a bit clumsy but secure thanks to its ESC. It reached a modest speed in our avoidance maneuver.

"The low-beam headlights had good intensity but reached only a fair distance..."

"...but taller drivers found thigh support lacking. The roomy rear seat has ample knee and head room, though some wished for more thigh support."
---------------------------

Plus, active head restraints are not standard or even optional.

[2wickedtoyz]

if they do make another wagon they need to follow in the steps of the gen3 camry they were bigger then the accord wagons. my car is a beast as is and can you imagine one with awd 3.3l engine and also a hybrid model?!?!?! that would be sick.

can someone try to photoshop the gen 6 camry into a wagon?

[chasman]

Hi 2wickedtoyz,

Originally Posted by 2wickedtoyz

can someone try to photoshop the gen 6 camry into a wagon?

Great idea!

[chasman]

The following quotes may be of interest for those who think interest in Camry wagons has declined:

TWHansen
"Gen2 Camry Wagon Czar"

My name is Tim Hansen. I'm a filmmaker from Milwaukee, WI and the proud owner of several 1987-1991 Toyota Camry station wagons. In fact, we've had over a dozen.

30 MPG, tons of cargo space, a hint of style, and best of all, it's a Toyota (so you can practically weld the hood shut)

Between my friends and I, we've owned over 16 Gen2 Camry Wagons. And we want more.

[atobe]

well see toyota was planning to bring the caldina to US if matrix sales was good but matrix sale wasn't so great so we're never going to get a sporty wagon... FYI caldina is a 3sgte(265hp one) powered all wheel drive wagon in japan which looks a lot like the matrix. they were introduced almost the same time. matrix's sale figures pretty much sealed the coffin for the sporty wagon from toyota.