Weird Clutch problem

[blueapple]

I've been trying to get some answer to this question for a long time, still, no one knows what might be wrong.
I had my clutch changed a while back, about 1000 miles back. I had it done at a local mechanic, all toyota parts. First, the clutch engages very low, I thought it would be normal, since the flywheel is just resurfaced and the clutch pressure plate had alot of marks on it, to make the disk seat. After a while the engagement point moved up a little, but still low for a Camry.

ok, here's the problem, If I barely press the pedal, there is a virbation or pulsing, coming from the pedal, the higher the RPM, the greater the vibration. And if I press the pedal in more, It's almost perfect, no problem at all. ( this is when the car's cold and idling )

Here's the weird part: It's worse as the car warms up ( or if I just left it under the sun ). Pressing the pedal in doesn't have too much buzz, but taking the foot off will feel like the pedal is dragging against something rough. It's stable if I just leave my foot there, the buzzing only happens when the pedal is in motion.

Although, compare to 600 miles ago, it's somewhat smoother, but I've never heard about nor experienced any new clutch doing this.

So, my logic is that, it could be the master cylinder, but that shouldn't have anything to do with RPM. It could be the diaphragm spring, but that shouldn't have anything to do with temperature. It could be the flywheel, but that should happen even if I just leave my foot in the middle of it, instead of only happening while releasing it.

Also, if I keep the engine running at 2K rpm, and press the pedal in and out, as the pedal moved, there is this very very tiny noise, coming from somewhere, sounds like a squeaking piston.. or.. rusted spring.. or something. Doesn't happen in idle, doesn't happen in cold start, only in higher RPMs, stops as the pedal stops moving.

Clutch engages fine, I never felt any chattering.



.

[MadDragon]

Clutch vibration is the plausible reason of unprofessional replacement. A local mechanic could cause damage to clutch parts. The balance of clutch plate could be deregulated. OR bearing is damaged.
This is not the whole story.
When the car warms up, clutch materials enlarge (steel disk, friction clutch etc.), disbalancing rises and vibration increases.
As the result the flywheel can be damaged.

[blueapple]

Something just came to my mind, since, the vibration, ( accompanied by dragging, sticking ) can be felt only when the pedal is traveling, could it be the release bearing not moving smoothly on its retainer? ( the metal tube thing that bolts around the input shaft. )

I don't know if that mechanic was experienced with this specific model, but, should that part be lubricated as well during a clutch job? I don't remember doing that last time I changed out my corolla's clutch, and it was perfectly fine ( I don't even remember there was a throw out bearing retainer. Could failing to do that cause that kind of sensation?
But still, since it's RPM related, I think it's more or less to do with something not balanced right.
would slight inbalance damage the parts very quickly? (There really isn't any chatter, and engagement seems to be fine, so far) I need at least 30K from this clutch, ( this car, for that matter ) before I can afford to do it myself again, next time.

Mechanics are never as careful as the owner. sigh, hope I had a garage.

[MadDragon]

Originally Posted by blueapple

Mechanics are never as careful as the owner. sigh, hope I had a garage.

You're quite right!
I have camry 2K. I made a mistake (this is my opinion), when I asked a local mechanic to replace my cluch-assy. It's rather expensive for me to do this operation on the official dealer's service.
After such primitive repair, my cluch pedal commenced to stick in lower position when I push on it.
The release bearing needn't be lubricated. It has already done while in manufacturing. Mechanic could just let it fall. As result one of the balls in bearing or roller path could be damaged. So bearing can shim. For a variety of reasons, axes could be dislocated... bla,bla,bla etc. It can really be so.
Defect cause can be determined by professional only.

30k miles or kilometres? My odometer is in km. For me 30K km is one year of driving approx. All depends on your driving style. If you drive calmly and don't overload the engine, cluch will be able to hold out till the end of 30K km (and miles possibly). But don't forget your tow-line and watch tachometer needle.

[blueapple]

So what happened to your clutch eventually? did you have it redone? Or just living with it? Is it still holding up ok? Since the parts are mine, from toyota, so I guess I can't have him redo it, they would most likely blame on the parts.
See, I'm buying a simpler car next time, the Echo/Yaris transmission is only around 50lbs, and there isn't even a subframe! ( My friend said he can lift his Civic {shit-vic} transaxle out with one hand, from the top ).

[MadDragon]

Now, I'm just living with it. New cluch parts 130USD (not original)+~200USD work + new master cylinder & so on... Rather expensive and long. Nothing changed. My cluch engages very low too. Near-term outlook is the full diagnostics of cluch.
But anyway Camry for me is the best choice.

"Civic {shit-vic}" - ha, ha cool!

[blueapple]

200USD? really? I paid that damn mechanic 500, the dealer wanted 780

[marc780]

Sounds to me like they did it on the cheap. Maybe they replaced the disc only. I suspect the pressure plate had been reused, and the old one might be still in there with its weak springs. Also that noise could be your old, worn out clutch release bearing (aka throwout bearing) or even the pilot bearing.

Also from your post, i think that its possible that the flywheel was resurfaced too much and the disc has to move an excessive distance to contact it. The flywheel could have been machined too much, too much metal taken off and too thin for the disc to make proper contact. If the trans ultimately has to come out to fix the problem, i'd check that.

Dont let anybody cut corners when changing your clutch. ALWAYS replace the clutch disc, pressure plate (even if they tell you its ok now!). (Rebuilt disc and pressure plate is fine!) And make sure they change the throwout bearing too , dont try to grease it no matter how good it looks! Just change it, it is cheap
And one item that gets overlooked alot, the little bronze pilot bearing pressed into the flywheel. Have them change this too.
The parts are inexpensive compared to the labor as you must have found out by now. Sometimes it saves money to buy the parts and give them to the mechanic, this way you know they will probably get changed esp if you ask for the old parts back (which in most states they are required to do if you ask them ahead of time).

As for your hydraulic clutch pedal, it may just need to be bled. It operates exactly like the brakes and there is a bleeder screw to bleed the system the same way. If the fluid looks dirty you may want to try rebuilding your clutch slave cylinder, rebuild kits are available cheap. They get rebuilt exactly like a wheel cylinder; but you may want to price a rebuild kit vs a new slave cylinder first, go with the replacement cylinder if its feasible for you.

http://www.lukclutch.com/support/ins...ion_tips.phtml

[matt swindell]

Originally Posted by marc780

Sounds to me like they did it on the cheap. Maybe they replaced the disc only. I suspect the pressure plate had been reused, and the old one might be still in there with its weak springs. Also that noise could be your old, worn out clutch release bearing (aka throwout bearing) or even the pilot bearing.
Also from your post, i suspect that the flywheel needs to be resurfaced too. The flywheel could have been damaged or overheated and may no longer be smooth, which is vital for proper clutch operation. Surfacing means they unbolt the flywheel and put it on a surfacing machine and make it smooth again. This service is not too expensive, not sure how much since i havent had it done in quite a while.

Dont let anybody cut corners when changing your clutch. ALWAYS replace the clutch disc, pressure plate (even if they tell you its ok now!). (Rebuilt disc and pressure plate is fine!) And make sure they change the throwout bearing too , dont try to grease it no matter how good it looks! Just change it, it is cheap
And one item that gets overlooked alot, the little bronze pilot bearing pressed into the flywheel. Have them change this too.
The parts are inexpensive compared to the labor as you must have found out by now. Sometimes it saves money to buy the parts and give them to the mechanic, this way you know they will probably get changed esp if you ask for the old parts back (which in most states they are required to do if you ask them ahead of time).

As for your hydraulic clutch pedal, it may just need to be bled. It operates exactly like the brakes and there is a bleeder screw to bleed the system the same way. If the fluid looks dirty you may want to try rebuilding your clutch slave cylinder, rebuild kits are available cheap. They get rebuilt exactly like a wheel cylinder; but you may want to price a rebuild kit vs a new slave cylinder first, go with the replacement cylinder if its feasible for you.

http://www.lukclutch.com/support/ins...ion_tips.phtml

I just got through changing my clutch out, changed it all, except for the pilot bearing(there isn't one on my 1993 Camry SE). Is this on all models or only the V6? (sorry to change the subject...)

[blueapple]

well, the pressure plate is replace. I pulled out the starter, and I can see they did use my new pressure plate. as of the bearing, I can't varify, but from how it looks like down the shift fork, it should be changed. I told them to resurface the flywheel, they probably just bought a remanufactured one from Kragen. Although, those Mexico Remanufactured TOYOTA OEM pressure plate looked low quality to me, could be a trouble some diaphragm spring that they didn't catch while rebuilding, I'm just guessing.

I think pilot bearing wasn't there to begin with. Not many FF cars have them anymore, which I don't know why.

I've never heard air in clutch line causing vibration though, should be spongy, right?

By the way, how did you get to the the clutch on your V6? did you have to take the entire subframe off too? and suspend engine? Or you actually had a better way of doing it? Really want to know

[matt swindell]

I am in autotech at school, and therefor have an overhead lift, so its alot easier to do anything. I dropped the subframe out, and did it that way. Although while looking at more sources I have found easier ways to go about it then what I did...I think pulling the engine out of the top would be a huge amount of more work.

[MadDragon]

The cluch assy (disc+cluch pressure plate+bearing) isn't original. It seems that the brand is "Nippon parts". I don't remember. Total price is ~150USD for the set.

Originally Posted by marc780

Sounds to me like they did it on the cheap. Maybe they replaced the disc only. I suspect the pressure plate had been reused, and the old one might be still in there with its weak springs. Also that noise could be your old, worn out clutch release bearing (aka throwout bearing) or even the pilot bearing.

Also from your post, i think that its possible that the flywheel was resurfaced too much and the disc has to move an excessive distance to contact it. The flywheel could have been machined too much, too much metal taken off and too thin for the disc to make proper contact. If the trans ultimately has to come out to fix the problem, i'd check that.

The cluch engages very low in either case. This means the flyweel surface is normal. Otherwise the engagement will be high.

Originally Posted by marc780

As for your hydraulic clutch pedal, it may just need to be bled. It operates exactly like the brakes and there is a bleeder screw to bleed the system the same way. If the fluid looks dirty you may want to try rebuilding your clutch slave cylinder, rebuild kits are available cheap. They get rebuilt exactly like a wheel cylinder; but you may want to price a rebuild kit vs a new slave cylinder first, go with the replacement cylinder if its feasible for you.

No one cylinder is bleed. The cistern of main cylinder is always full. I changed both (50$ for each, not original too), no effect. The fluid is clear, they flushed all the system. The same thing.

The full diagnostics of cluch will solve the problem I hope. I'm going to do the full complex of diagnostics (engine, cluch, suspension - 30$ for each component).

[blueapple]

Question for Matt Swindell:
You said you found easier way to go about it, so, mind sharing? I might have to do it again sometime in the future and would like to know what you discovered. And, did you mean taking it off from the top is more work? Or less?

Taking off the subframe is fine, but having to suspend the steering rack is just too much trouble. ( plus my exhaust pipe was a bit old and I couldn't get the 3 nuts off without risking breaking it.


And Mad Dragon, I would like to know the diagnostic result! Once you have it.

Thank you!

[matt swindell]

Originally Posted by blueapple

Question for Matt Swindell:
You said you found easier way to go about it, so, mind sharing? I might have to do it again sometime in the future and would like to know what you discovered. And, did you mean taking it off from the top is more work? Or less?

Taking off the subframe is fine, but having to suspend the steering rack is just too much trouble. ( plus my exhaust pipe was a bit old and I couldn't get the 3 nuts off without risking breaking it.

Those are actually the 2 shortcuts I found...remove the exhaust completely, except for the headers. And to suspend my steering rack all I did was run one piece of mechanics wire from either side of it up to the enigine support (ran from fire wall to radiator support). Seemed strong enough to me. Other than that I was basically saying follow the manual (any of them) for the removing the sub frame way. I didn't have it at first, but once I got it, I just undid everything on top, then any wires to the tranny, the motor mounts (except for dogbone on top), and dropped the rack. Sorry I'm not of much help, but if you need anything else, just ask.
Matt

[MadDragon]

I've found some infomation on gen3 cluch. It's almost identical in comparison with gen4. Here it is:
Cluch chatters -> top priority check - engine mounting damaged or loosen, second - the cluch disc's runout is excessive or the cluch disc is oily or worn out.