Soft Clutch + Can't shift into / out of gear !!

[noobiedoobiedo]

Hi, first post.

I have a 93 Camry SE V6 5 speed, about 200k miles.

Yesterday I let my friend drive my car (he has before) and he usually takes it a little rough (IE: shifts at higher RPMS than I would, likes to "downshift"). I drove the car back from his house (about 40 miles) and didn't really notice any serious problems. The clutch was a little "soft" but I was still able to use it without great concern.

So, fast forward to today.

I drive over to a friends house (about 20 miles away, mainly freeway driving). Clutch is still a little soft but every now and then it feels "normal".

BTW, on the way I did a little playing around but no messed up clutch action, just got the RPMS up to about 4K, nothing special.

So I go to exit and all of a sudden I have no clutch pressure, it goes all the way to the floor and sticks. I am unable to shift out of gear / into other gears and have to pull the peddle up with the top of my foot. This continues for a few more tries over about 45 seconds then I'm able to shift. For the rest of the short ride the clutch is very soft or has no pressure at all and stick when pushed in. It almost feels like the peddle is getting stuck on the rug (but this is not the case). On the rest of the trip I had two more cases where the clutch is stuck to the floor and I'm unable to shift into gear or out of gear.


So since I've been at my friends I've played with it a bit and researched the problem on the internet.

Here is what I got now.

About 1/2 the time I'm able to shift gears (standing still engine running or driving)
The other 1/2 the time the clutch goes all the way to the floor with no pressure, sticks and I'm unable to change the gears. After about 45 seconds or so I'm able to change gears but the clutch peddle still wants to stick to the floor with very very very little pressure.

I checked the slave fluid levels and it looks a little low so I added some more DOT3, this changed nothing that I could tell when I took it for a test drive afterwards.

I've never really had any problems with the clutch before except very rarely it'd be a little soft, but thats it. I think maybe a long time ago it stuck down like this once but I didn't have any other problems.

So far what I've read tells me I may need to replace the master/slave cylinder(s).

Any other ideas !?

[noobiedoobiedo]

After letting it sit for about 30 minutes after adding the DOT3 this is what I've found now.

I pummped the clutch almost 100 times (in neutral) with almost not problems, it snapped back except for one time.

But as soon as I put it in reverse to go for a test drive the clutch sticks.

I repark and start pumping the clutch again, everything seems almost ok.

Put it in reverse to go for a drive and again no pressure and I'm stuck in gear.

I'll update more as I find out more information.

Thanks in advance.

[BakaWill]

link here to repair manual

kinka sounds like air got into the clutch lines. the first thing that i would do is bleed the slave cylinder.if thats it, its an easy fix.


if not you're gonna need to start replacing stuff starting with the slave cylinder.

and tell your friend to get his own yota, lol. but i doubt any of his driving woulda messed it up that bad.

Worst Case Scenerio is that the splines bent that your clucth travels on(trans input shaft).

[marc780]

1. clutch hydraulics could be leaky and need bleeding, they get bled exactly like the brakes. Or maybe you need a rebuilt cylinder or hoses.
2. Your pressure plate is wearing out. Occasionally those diaphragm springs go bad. This might explain the mushy clutch action. The pressure plate went bad on another car i used to have, and when this happened i couldn't shift at all. So probably you just need a clutch job with a new pressure plate, disc and release bearing.

[Mike Gerber]

Since you had to "add a little DOT3" to the clutch master, I think you have a leak in either the clutch slave or the master. Air may have got in to the system, if the fluid was low enough. Bleeding the system at the slave might cure the symptom temporarily, but not the ailment. You must check for leaks at the clutch master and the slave cylinder. Checking the slave cylinder is easly. Pull back the rubber boot and if there is fluid there, then you have a leaky slave cylinder. Replace it or rebuilt it and bleed the system. Checking the master is a bit more difficult since they can leak externally or internally. To check for an external leak, go inside the car and pull down the carpet up by the pedals. If you see fluid there you have an external leak in the master. There really is no way to check for an internal leak other than the pumping method you have tried. Fluid just leaks past the piston seal inside the cylinder and it simply won't build enough pressure. The solution to either problem is to replace or rebuid the master cylinder and bleed the system. If you take the car in to a professional, they usually just replace both the master and slave cylinder at the same time. The theory is that if one goes, the other is usually not far behind. They also don't want you returning to them in a few weeks with what seems like the same problem. Replacing both at a shop usually runs about $300. Run the checks that I have suggested and see if the slave or master is leaking. Hopefully if it is the master, it will be an external leak and you will know for sure what is defective. My vote is for a defective slave since they are lower and any moisture that get's absorbed in to the system (brake fluid is hydroscopic-meaning it absorbs moisture over time) is heavier than the fluid and sinks to the lowest point. That water then rusts the walls of the slave inside, causes pits on the inside walls and eventually gouges and ruins the rubber o-ring type seal that is on the piston. As this o-ring is ruined, the fluid runs by it causing a fluid leak and little or no pressure. The master cylinder get's ruined in the same way. That's why many people now bleed fresh fluid in to their brake system and clutch hydraulic system every few years.

Good luck with the problem.

Mike

[noobiedoobiedo]

Thanks to everyone for the info.

I was at my gf's house this weekend w/no tools and such so I wasn't really able to try anything yet besides adding a little DOT 3. At the time I added it the fluid level looked just a *little* low.

Since Friday, when the problem was first noticed things have gotten better.

This is what I've noticed since then :

At first I could sit there "parked" and pump the clutch a lot with no real pressure loss, then I'd go to test drive it and before I was 1/2 backed out of the parking spot I'd lose all pressure. Also, I could sit there and press the clutch in and put it in 1st and after about 15 - 20 seconds hear/feel the car trying to engage the gear as the clutch looses its functionality.

Now I'm able to back out / get on the road and get going somewhere before the clutch looses all pressure.

A easy "fix" though for when I loose all pressure is this :

-pull the clutch back up with my foot
-barely pump it 1/3 or 1/4 of the way down a few times

Doing that (takes about 5 seconds) brings the pressure back almost right away. It's still a little soft but it's usable and returns to close to "normal" pretty fast.

Thanks again yall.

[hooRAH]

Hey,
I saw your post, thought I might be of some help, I've had to deal with this issue before. It was on my BMW, not on our camry, but the system is nearly exactly the same.

It sounds like you're sucking in air (and letting out fluid) from some point in the system. When it sucks in air, you loose pressure and the pedal doesn't come back up, just like everyone else said. When you pump the pedal, you're actually bleeding the air out through the leak it came in from, and then it works.

One thing I would recommend as a quick fix is that you check the grommets that hold the brake fluid resivoir on. I hate to blindly say "this is what happened to me, although the problem is different" and lead you down the wrong path, I'm just throwing it out there as general knowledge. In my case, the grommets were leaking, and the brake fluid was leaking below the clutch pickup line (but not low enough to trip the low brake fluid sensor). So thats just one quick thing to check (check to make sure brake fluid is above pickup line).

I don't know how handy you are with replacing stuff, but if I were in your situation, I would replace the slave cylinder, inspect the lower hose, bleed the system, and see if that fixes it. If yes, great! If not, then look to the master. Like someone else said, a shop is going to want to replace them both at once so you don't come back in next week and say that they didn't fix the problem. At least if you have to have the master replaced by a shop, you can save some cash by doing the slave yourself first.

Thats about all there is to the system, so with this advice and some troubleshooting, you should have it figured out pretty quickly. Good luck, hope this helps!