Timing questions - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

tracyf · 03-21-2006, 08:27 PM

Yes, I have searched and according to what I have found, I think my timing may be off. The Camry runs but it sounds like it wants to idle low and doesn't have much power, sounds sick as far as running smoothly. I have a few questions, but I would like to preface them by giving a (try-to-make-it-brief) synopsis of what I have encountered/done over the past 4 weeks (work two jobs and work on car when I have time at home - waiting on parts, etc.)

About a month ago my wife's 1990 V6 Camry quit on her. I showed up and got it to start, but only for a few minutes - whereupon it quit on me too.

I replaced fuel filter and made sure the fuel pump was pumping fuel out while I was into that - still wouldn't start.

I towed the car back to covered/lit garage to try and find out/fix what was wrong. To be perfectly honest, I have been intimidated by the thoughts of working on this car and have not done much more than change the oil for about 42k miles since we got it (now has 124k miles). When I got to the ignition, the igniter/coil was good, then replaced the cap and rotor on the distributor (looked like original ones) and lo and behold it fired up! It ran a bit rough, but I did not pay much attention to it at the time because I had the boot between air filter and plenum off with a couple of vacuum lines disconnected too - figured that was it.

Since then, I have replaced plugs, wires, valve cover gaskets (since I have the plenum off anyway), timing belt, timing belt tensioner, both pulleys, cam and crank seals, and water pump. I have also done some things while it was up in the air that I feel are unrelated to this present problem but want to mention so that someone with vast knowledge may connect one of them to this problem - these things include both front struts, CV axle on driver side (passenger one still good), clean/regrease/service/fluid change brakes, change PS fluid, transmission fluid, differential fluid, engine oil, coolant, thermostat (and a partridge in a pear tree).

When I started the timing belt I stripped down to where it is (using the book instructions), noted that when I rotated the belt to where both cam marks lined up with cover marks that the crank mark actually was nowhere on the little scale of TDC numbers. It should have been somewhere around 1 o'clock or 1:30, but it was actually around 10 or 10:30. I thought, well ok, the car has been running with it like this, so I made me a score mark (and more definite notch once it was removed) at the "0" mark on the crank pulley. That said - I want to be clear - before I dismantled the belt from its position, I had a very good recording of where both cams and the crank were supposed to be to replace them properly. I then took off the belt, took off the back TB cover and the valve covers (to hold the cam shafts still for cam gear removal - hexed area on camshafts), replaced the seals for the cams and the crank, replaced the water pump, replaced both timing belt idlers/pulleys, replaced the timing belt tensioner, put new belt on and lined everything back up like it had been on the original belt, put everything back like it was, rotated it all several times with it still lining up, and started the car. It runs like it is idling too low and doesnt have enough power, barely accelerates and sounds not too smooth at all, even little pinging in the back valve bank I would venture to say - but may be both of them.

My questions are these:
Could this have been something that was messed up when her car quit and the cap/rotor had reached the point of failure? (the rotor arm was not broken but the cap was cracked and looked almost like lightning had zapped it with a black mark underneath it).

Could this be something that I accidentally moved when I put the new cap/rotor on? I did not monkey with the distributor itself - aside from touching probes to the connections and seeing it was I think 180 ohms? (was on within what manual said it should be). I did have a hard time getting the original cap off and the rotor arm broke while I was trying to pry it off (yes I had the bolt out of it).

Could this possibly be anything to do with doing the timing belt and should I expect this problem every time I choose to do this TB in the future? I emphasize that I did line everything up like it had been and actually rotated the crank 14 times (7 for cams) and was still dead on the marks. I broke the crank bolt loose by tapping the starter (feel better about wedging flywheel teeth through the starter-hole now that I have done it) and I do not know how far around it traveled. I know the crank turns 2 times for each revolution of the cams - if I was TDC with the crank at only 1 turn (belt now off and things moving independently) would it make this problem but be able to start and run? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated, as this is my first time doing this and want to continue to do as much myself as I can. I should also mention that I do not have a timing light nor know how to use one so any instructions, recommended buys/deals would also be very appreciated.

Thanks to all of you and God Bless you.

Cyorke · 03-21-2006, 09:21 PM

well as much as you are going to ahte this I would say it sounds like you got the timing off on teh belt. Dont worry about score marks and things likethat. There are marks on both cam gears and the cam cap directly behind the gears. There is a mark on the crank pulley and also on the oil pump housing jsut above the crank gear. You need to make sure that all of these are lined up and the timing will be correct. You should see if you can get access to a timing light. You may be abel to rent one at autozone or the like. You will have to jump the diagnostic connector under the hood to get the ECU into the correct mode to check the timing. It is a fairl easy process.

tracyf · 03-21-2006, 09:59 PM

So even though I put everything (cams and crank) positioned back like it was, you think the belt may be off timing? I did not see any mark on the crank pulley aside from the notch that did not line up with really anything, and on the crank gear there was a circle on one of the teeth that looked to be about 180 degrees from where the notch of the pulley had been - once again with nothing to line it up to that I saw. I do not remember seeing anything else to line up the crank with - should have looked closer. Thanks (sighs)

God Bless

tracyf · 03-22-2006, 08:38 AM

If the crank were rotated one revolution (while the belt was off and it would not move the cams) and when it was lined back up for the belt it was still rotated only one revolution (instead of two) and then lined back up with marks - and cams lined up with marks - would it run at all? Would it just run slightly off like it is now? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

God Bless.

Cyorke · 03-22-2006, 09:30 AM

Yes it will run. You dont have to worry about timing marks on the belt or match marks or anything like that.

There is a notch on both cam gears. THese marks line up with corresponding marks onthe cylinder head-cam cap. Make sure those marks are lined up.

There is a mark onthe crank gear. It will look like a punch mark or an actual line. This mark lines up witha corresponding mark on the oil pump housing. Again as long as these marks are lined up then everythign is right.

You can rotate the engine without the belt on til you are blue in the face. As long as you line these marks up before installing the belt.

I ahve a 3VZ engine in my garagae that I am supposed to be installing for my sister I will try to take some pictures of. IT is not the exact same engine as in your but very similar. Yours should be a 2VZ engine. THe one I have is jsut the next generation of taht engine. Yours should be a 2.5 liter where mine is a 3.0 liter.

If I can get good enough pictures from my video camera I will try to post them. My wife has our good digi cam on a trip.

Cyorke · 03-22-2006, 09:55 AM

Ok I took these pictures so hopefully they will help out

Ok in the first picture you can see the crankshaft and all associated parts. if you look at what about 10 o'clock there is a small aluminum finger that just out. Inthe car it is probably more at 11 o'clock since mine is sitting on a pallet on the florr it is not where it would actually be in the car. THis it he amrk on the oil pump housing.

The second picture is of the crankshaft gear. If you look closely you can see the notch that is on the backside of the flange.

The third picture is also the crank gear. It is hard to see but if you count three teeth over from teh notch in teh gear for aligning it on the crankshaft you will see a small indention. This is the same mark as in the second picture. ALignt the mark on teh gear witht eh mark on teh oil pump housing and you are good to go. LIke I said inthe other post you can turn it as much as you want but as long as those two marks are aligned it is fine.

The fourth picture is of the amrks on the cam gears. On the one I have they are painted white but they may not be on yours. I was wrong about the location of the mark on the engine though It is actually located on teh timing cover. The amrk onteh gear is a line that runs from the edge of the tooth towards the middle of the gear. Again you can turn these as much as you wnat but as long as those marks are aligned then the cams are in time.

I hope this helps some what. It is hard to diagnose over the internet and not being able to actually see waht you have makes it hard also.

tracyf · 03-22-2006, 02:18 PM

That small projection (on the oil pump) in the first pic I can barely make out. Wouldn't the crank gear obscure that once it was on to where it would be hard to line them up perfectly? I am going to dig back into mine tomorrow and get this right this time - even if I have to try several times with just putting the belt back on and releasing the tensioner and starting it up to see how it runs and start over if it is wrong. Should the crank pulley mark everyone refers to be at "0" when I put it back on with the gear lined up like you said? If not - don't worry about it right?

From questions and answers on here, talking to local mechanics, and endless reading in Haynes and factory manual, I think I have pieced together what happened. Hypothetically, when her car quit and wouldn't start back and the new cap and rotor got it to start (but rough), I think it had perhaps already jumped timing (even though the old belt looked fine) and that the old/worn/original cap/rotor would not function with the timing off. The new ones would and did. The subsequent belt job that I was doing as preventive maintenance (and that my wife saw as unnecessary stuff I was doing that kept her favorite car from being usable) was actually me taking off something that was already wrong and putting it back wrong (going with what I saw it as having been over what everyone/every manual said it should be). Tomorrow I am going to pin down the exact marks (crank are the only ones I am confused on or think may be wrong - the cam ones were and have been easy to ID and line up) and will try to photograph and post them on here (perhaps for verification before reassembling). I thank everyone (ESPECIALLY Chris aka Cyorke) for their patience and understanding (including my wife....lol) Now I just wish I was home and off today so I could dig into the timing belt right now! (That is something I thought I would never say before getting my hands dirty these past couple of weeks).

God Bless

Cyorke · 03-22-2006, 03:22 PM

Actually when you line the mark onteh crank gear and the oil pump housing hte marks will be visible. SInce the mark on eh pump housing jut s out like a small finger it can still be seen. Basically it will look like a V with a line coming out of it.

as for the actaul crank pulley yes when you get everything lined up properly the timing mark on the pulley should line up with the 0 mark on the timing cover.

tracyf · 03-22-2006, 03:33 PM

Thanks so much. I am going to start by getting down to the belt tomorrow, then rotate until the cams are right, take the belt off, rotate the crank a bit more (maybe 45 degrees it lacks) until the notch lines up with the "0" (the original notch, not my newly made one) and hopefully when I take the pulley off I will find the gear lined up on these further marks as you described. I am eager to hear this run smooth and feel the accomplishment of having done it "right" (plus prove to my wife that I was not just blindly stumbling around here..............lol).

Thanks again and God Bless

Cyorke · 03-22-2006, 03:48 PM

well jsut thin of all teh experience. You could start doing timing belts for other people after all of this.

tracyf · 03-23-2006, 10:05 PM

You were exactly right Chris. I got into the timing belt and set the crank to "0" on the original mark (that it was not on when I opened it the first time), then took the crank pulley off - there underneath it was exactly what you said (might try to post the pics I tool soon). The indention on the crank gear had the little protrusion on the oil pump right behind it. I lined the cams up (they had been ahead 3 teeth when the crank would hit TDC = 22.5 degrees) and put it all back together - runs like a dream. My hypothesis about this having jumped timing as being the initial problem that made the car quit was right (all that info is in previous posts on here). As a matter of fact, now that all is said and done and my wife has her Camry back - she tells me that the day it quit her mother told her earlier in the day that it sounded like it had jumped time. Thanks for telling ME honey ... lol! I guess maybe it had jumped one tooth at that point and jumped more when it quit. Thanks Chris, for all of your advice and infinite knowledge. I owe you!

God Bless

Cyorke · 03-23-2006, 10:28 PM

Well I am glad you got it figured out.

I am glad I could be of help also. Just be glad that the Toyota engines with timing belts are non-interference engines. If it was an interference engine you would probably be pulling the heads off and having at minimum a valve job done.

Now you should be good to go for at least another 60k miles.

Maybe next time you have problems with it you should talk to your mother-in-law about help diagnosing the car.