Ring Gear

[ROBS]

So, I got an 88 Camry LE - 3SFE - Auto. New to the forum, just finished doing the headgasket, timing belt, and everything that comes along with that . Its running great, but i'm having an issue with the starter or more likly, the ring gear. Its making a high pitched grind when trying to start the engine (similar to when you turn the key when the engine is already running). It does this almost every start. I picked up a starter from the wreckers, but its doing the same thing.

So...I've done a bunch of reading through the threads and noticed that this was a common issue on these gen2's. What I know so far is that there was some sort of design flaw with the starter which causes the ring gear to wear prematurly.

Great...now how do I go about changing the ring gear. Haynes mentions nothing about a ring gear in the index of the book and i've never had to change one before. Does the tranny need to come out or can I get at it through the hole for the starter? Any other tips from people who have done this repair?

Thank you.

[JetspeedCamry]

On these cars, there refered to as flexplates.

What you need to do is remove the tranny from the car, and then unbolt the flexplate from the crank. Replace it, put new bolts in and then put everything else back in.

[chasman]

Hi ROBS,

In your review of threads on this topic did you happen to see the following?
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t115470.html

Hope this helps,

[ROBS]

Hey thanks, so the ring gear is the same as the flexplate? Flywheel in other words right? Now, I'm having a bit of trouble with the terminology, so bear with me. I'm used to my Gen1 Celica...much older, rear wheel drive, standard...much different.

Anyways, I was hoping it wouldn't come to removing the tranny, but I guess if it has to be done... I was under the impression that the ring gear was somthing that the starter engaged with to then crank the flywheel...is that totally off?


Ya, I did see that thread, thats where I first found out about the earlier starters. The problem in that thread sounds very similar, except everyone is pointing to the starter itself and I already replaced mine. I guess it could be a bad one since it was from a wrecking yard, but it was on the shelf, tested and garaunteed.

What do you guys think?

[JetspeedCamry]

A flywheel and a flexplate are two different things, but do the same "job". Flywheels are found on manual transmission cars and contain provisions for mounting a pressure plate and clutch. A flexplate is found in automatic transmisson cars and has holes in it that mount to the torque converter.

Both of which, have teeth around the edge of them that the starter engages to. And both have the same mounting to the crank.

Remember that in order to remove the transmission, you must unbolt the torque converter from the flexplate by removing the small inspection cover under the car (actually bolted to the tranny) and turning the crank a bit at a time to remove the 6 or so bolts that hold the flex to the TC. If you don't do this, the tranny WONT come out hahaha.

[chasman]

Originally Posted by ROBS

Ya, I did see that thread, thats where I first found out about the earlier starters. The problem in that thread sounds very similar, except everyone is pointing to the starter itself and I already replaced mine. I guess it could be a bad one since it was from a wrecking yard, but it was on the shelf, tested and garaunteed.

What do you guys think?

You might want to doublecheck with the moderator "Tercel GTS" before going to the trouble of removing the AT to change the flexplate:

Originally Posted by Tercel GTS

http://www.wai-wetherill.com/product..._num=2-1055-ND

I can show you this and it has many part numbers listed. If you are buying from a parts store it doesn't matter what part number you use though as they are mass-rebuilt at a factory and assigned numbers as needed. You just have to open the boxes and see which gear is on it. I rebuild starters and modify the gears for older cars to prevent the problem you are describing.

Tercel GTS
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Savannah GA
Posts: 2,424
Trader Rating: (1)
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[ROBS]

Alright, so I think what I'll do is first remove the inspection cover and inspect the flexplate teeth while having somone crank the engine by hand. If none are visibly chipped, i'll remove the starter and look at the gear to see if it is the old style gear.

Now, from this sentence Tercel GTS posted "I rebuild starters and modify the gears for older cars to prevent the problem you are describing" it sounds as if its actually the starter's design that does not allow it to engage to the flexplate properly (remember this is just another stock starter I got from the wreckers so it could be the same issue...i'll have to check the gear)...i'll contact him and see what he thinks, but I have to get ready for work now...I'll do it later at work.

[chasman]

Hi ROBS,

Let us know what you find.

[ROBS]

I havn't had a chance to check the flexplate yet, but tomarrow i should be able to. I'll let you guys know whats up.

This morning I tried to start it up, but I got the grinding sound again. Now usually what I would do is turn the key all the way OFF, then turn it to ON again and it would do the same grindingthing about 3 times or more before it would finally start. Today, what I did differently was instead of turning it off after the 1st try, I just left it in the ON position, then tapped the starter with a wrench. It cranked just fine the second try after tapping it. This is a bit reassuring since I would think that would point to an issue with the starter itself. Maybe, i'll just try a new one from the wreckers. It is garaunteed for 4 months.

[JetspeedCamry]

Would take all of 2 minutes to rip it off and try!..so id say go for that option first.
Getting under the car, removing the inspec. cover and turning the motor to check for damage to the flexplate WILL take longer

[chasman]

Hi ROBS,

Check out this link:

http://gen2camry.proboards26.com/ind...ead=1075745167

Hope it helps,

[Kep]

Hi Robs,

I have a 1990 that did/does that. I too got a junker and guess what? It did it too. The odd thing was that the original starter's gear was undamaged when I removed it. Anyhow, the replacement doesn't do it as often so I am living with it. I did determine one thing though. If I wait about 15 -20 seconds before I try it again it almost always starts on the second try. I was just about to inspect the gears on the flexplate until I figured this out.

One other analysis of the problem mentioned that the Toyota starters are made very similar to a transmission with bands and that sometimes the band slips. I don't know.

If you do a visual inspection please let us know what you learn.

Kep

[ROBS]

Alright, I got a second starter form the wreckers and it still does it. I really hope its not the flexplate, but I dont want to dish out the cash for another replacement when it might even do the same thing. I still havn't had a chance to check the flexplate, but I'm thinking thats the only way to find out for sure. I even had the car in the air to tighten the PS belt, but I didnt have time for the flexplate since I live in an apartment and am not supposed to be doing any repairs here so I wanted to get the car down quick, I have to go to my friends place to do anything more than that. It might have to wait until next Mon. when I have a day off.

Hey Kep, how often does this happen to you roughly? It happens to me about 1 in 5 starts...roughly...somtimes more, somtimes less. I seemed to have found little things that help, but none garauntee a good start. The tapping with a wrench thing didn't work the one time the second "new" starter did it today. Definatly waiting between tries helps. I found clicking the key all the way off then back to on and leave it there for a few seconds before trying sometimes helps. Or leave it in on for a few seconds to begin with before cranking.

chasman, thanks for the link. Its good to have the model numbers.

I'll keep you guys up to date with what I find. Keep any info that could help coming. Anyone had this happen before? What was the outcome, new starter or flexplate/flywheel? How often was it happening?

[ROBS]

1. STARTER MOTOR

Problem:

The stock Bosch starter motor as equipped with the 3S-FE may grind when attemping to turn over the engine. The cause has been traced to a faulty starter pinion gear. In extreme cases, these fa
ulty starters can cause flywheel damage. Since then, Bosch has redsigned the SR230X and SR231X model starters with improved gear bevels, and issued a service notice (#B-37). Toyota has also manufactered an improved flywheel for the 3S-FE. This problem also applies to 3S-FEs equipped in the Toyota Celica. 3S-FEs in the RAV4s have the "fixed" starters.

Solution:

Replace the starter motor with a redsigned SR230X or 231X unit. Other starters that work are available from Nipon Denso. 3S-FE compatible starters are available in 1kW and 1.4kW power ratings. The 1kW model is usually sufficient unless you need improved cold starting power. Check your flywheel for damage, and replace if necessary.

So I called the parts store and they want $173 for the new starter at Lordco. They had 2 Bosch starters to choose from...I'm assuming one is the old one, but why would they even still stock them?

The junkyard wants $125 for a flexplate and I have to pull it.

So either way I have to get a new starter, even if the flexplate is damaged since it is the stock starters that cause the damage. You would think I could just get a RAV4 starter form the junkyard and use that instead of getting a new one, but I want to be sure.

Anyone know any other cheap alternatives up here in Canada? Like online parts stores that ship from Canada so I dont have to deal with customs?

[ROBS]

So I got the brand new starter for 2 reasons. I looked under the car and seen that a lot of crap would have had to come off to get to the inspection cover and decieded I could find out if the flexplate is at fault this way. And I figure I will need the new starter with the redesigned gear anyways, even if I have to replace the flexpate. I put the new starter in and it went fine for a day until it grinded just once, so I took it out right away and put the junk yard one back in.

Now I'm just living with the grind until it wont start at all, then its going to the shop for the flexplate. I'm just not up to that job.

You dont think that 1 grind would mess up the new starter do you? There was some shredded metal on the gear when I took it out, but nothing major.