30,000miles on single oil change(how to help my car?) Part 2

[Rob-D]

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You,
I really appreciate your honest advice and opinion. I had no idea that name-calling will be involved. I completely agree will both sides of the story. For now, I will take the less expensive one. I am afraid to even of asking a dealer “how much” to rebuild? This weekend I want to do some work myself: First, to take the valve cover off and see what the situation is like for myself (I don’t want to offend any mechanics, but every time I took my car to one, they make sure I will come back really soon $$$$, or this might be just my paranoia acting up. The bottom line I value your experience and expertise, but I don’t trust you and for past fifteen years I have been doing majority of the work on all of my cars my self with pretty good results) SECOND, oil pan I want to get stuff from the bottom. THIRD, flush the engine with motor flush. Here is my question: how much motor flush can I put to get most from it without damaging the engine. Usually, I put 1 quart for 4 quarts of oil. Could I mix 50/50, or more? THEN, I got suggestion to add 1 quart of ATF to the oil for next 500miles or so. Did any of You agree with this? It makes sense to me, because two years ago some lube-boy talked me in to changing transmission fluid in my 91 accord for the first time after 115,000miles. New ATF with fresh detergents loosen all the buildup, transmission was shut in less then 3,000miles from all the crap flowing and clogging ANY THING AND EVERY THING!!!!!!! I will keep You posted. Thank you for you help.
Rob

[Kooter]

Hi Rob,

I’m sorry your first post led to a name-calling event by one of the members here. There was no reason for him to act that way. Hopefully it won’t happen again.

I’m curious to know if you saw what the mechanic saw when he removed the valve cover and changed the oil and filter…or did he just explain to you [in his opinion] what he saw? Were you with him? Also, did the shop where you took the car use an engine flush treatment? And if so…did the engine only begin smoking (at initial crank-up) after this engine flush was performed? If the smoking (at initial crank-up) only began after the engine flush, this is pretty common for a short period of time after it's used. However if the smoking at start-up continues, it means something needs attention...like maybe the valve seals.

Assuming the original owner kept the oil level above where the oil light stayed off I doubt very seriously there is any engine damage. I’m not sure what type of engine oil your car came factory filled with but mineral oil has a higher evaporation and burn-off rate than synthetic engine oil. Nevertheless all engine oils (mineral and synthetic) have improved so much in the last five or six years that carmakers often use 15K+ miles as the norm for oil and filter changes, including the first change. And it is a known fact that today’s engine oils still retain a high margin of their lubricating properties long after 15K miles. In fact it is the oil filter that needs changing before the oil itself. And oil filters have bypass valve built-in them whereby if the filter media gets clogged up the oil will continue to flow without going through the filter’s filtering media so oil is still available to lubricate the engine although it’s no longer filtered. I mention this only because that would be an extreme event even if an engine went 30K miles without a filter and oil change. Of course if the owner let the engine run too low on oil or overheated the engine, that's a totally different story. I think it's safe to assume that even though the original owner did not take good care of the car he most likely at least kept enough oil in the engine to make sure that he could use the car to get him from point A to point B. That would be a cheap price to pay (a quart of oil) to be able to continue to drive the car! The alternative would have been a car that he couldn't use at all if the engine had failed because of lack of ample oil...

Another thing that you mentioned in your first post was that you said (or the mechanic told you) that the oil was thick looking…or some description like that. That is an objective opinion and one that really needs to be defined…but it is next to impossible to properly analyze such a description. Case in point is my next-door neighbor who bought a new 540i BMW a year or so ago. His oil and filter doesn’t need to be changed until the on-board computer alerts the owner it’s time for service. He mentioned to me that he had driven his car over 15K miles on the original factory oil and filter and he was concerned if that wasn’t too long to go without an oil and filter change. I pulled out the dipstick on his engine and the oil was obviously very black as well as thick looking but the engine was cold when I checked it. Nevertheless it was still within the carmaker’s service requirements and it is a known fact that the oil still had a huge margin of ample protection left when it was finally changed. My point is that cold oil looks thick to the eye and oil that is doing its job looks black after being used for a period of time because it has carbon, dirt and engine byproducts in it. But that alone does not mean the oil isn’t able to do its job effectively. Some oils can be used in excess of 35K miles and still retain more than adequate properties. Likewise, many long distant truck drivers will drive many times that mileage before changing oil. And many of them will have their oil analyzed to make sure it still has the lubricating, cleansing, anti-foaming, particle suspension and initial start-up protection. Plus, the oil analysis also gives the owner an internal engine health report by looking for microscopic particles of metals indicating bearing failure, ring damage, etc. It’s a shame you weren’t able to keep a small sample of the oil that you are so concerned about. It would tell you a lot about the condition of your engine.

Once again, I would change the oil and filter every couple of thousands miles for a few cycles and use 5W-30 synthetic engine oil. (By the way synthetic engine oil does have much better cleansing properties than mineral oil.) As for the smoking at initial cold start-up, hopefully that was caused by the remnants of the solvents used in the engine flush but I would keep an eye on that to see if it continues.

Good luck!

Kooter

PS - If your engine has already had one engine flush I would not do another one. And I would definitely not use ATF or anything else not specifically designed to be used in your crankcase.

PPS – You may want to answer the questions I had for you at the beginning of my post.

[Nick]

like i said last time, unless the engine is dying, just do a couple oil changes with that oil flush (diesel fuel) that you leave idle for 5-10 minutes, then drain

oil is cheap, that's what my dad engraved in my brain (but then again my dad knows shit about cars)

50/50 would be a bit much, i'd just do an oil flush and change every 1000 mile for the next 3-4

how about changing to full synthetic, engine might leak a bit, but seals are cheaper than having to rebuild an engine

[Rob-D]

Thank you for your post. I will try to give you detail account of this car’s history.
I had very bad experience with auction (dealer auction) few years ago and promised my- self never again. Never say never J
This Camry was not technically repo. It was surrender by that lady to creditor (small credit union) which CEO is pretty good friend of mine. That was back in November 2002, there was a lot of technicality because lady declared bankruptcy but car wasn’t included.
Car was ready for auction end of May 2003 (salient auction, about month long only two bidders). Car had been kept in the garage all that time (small one, you had to start the car and pull it out to look at it),I never had a chance to check the oil on the cold engine. I started the car late April after 6 months of sitting, no problems just 4 seconds of knocking in the engine.
After I won the auction, I had drive the car home last Thursday 10th (about 7miles). Car was fine only thing when breaking oil light was coming on but when it was leveled it was ok (no knocking, noting unusual). On the way back home ,I got 5 quarts of mineral oil 5w-30, oil filter, motor flush. Drain the engine (engine was at normal temperature) I remember that oil wasn’t hot, it was black, not to thick. I think it might have been one of the worst I ever got out of engine. I forgot to put the engine flush in and after I got 0.5-0.75quart, I was to piss to even think about it. I wasn’t able to remove the filter (lost my oil filter wrench to a friend) oil filter was right under the exhaust manifold HOT.
I put the plug back in filed it with 4 quarts when filing the engine whit oil, I had to hold the battle with my thumb, oil was going in slow (my 2002 Tacoma is the same way, normal opening half of it closed off. Camry is for my wife J).
I STILL HAVE THE OLD OIL! I was to furies to deal with any thing. I started the car, drove it that evening about 20 miles. Car didn’t smoke or anything. Next morning car started smoking when I started it( for about 10 seconds pretty big cloud about 2 times the size of the car after that it was ok).
I went to ETD discount tire to get two front tires for the car and aliment, which was the second time I was there in my life. I told them about the oil situation and ask to flush the engine with my motor flush, and put in dissent oil they only had Blend 5w-30. I asked them to save the filter because I want it to make sure it was original filer. The manager sad that they took valve cover of one side there was some build up, but it should be ok. He told me to flush the engine two or three more times and it is going to be ok. Also he told me to add those gas additives to clean valves too, and it will be ok. Car was sitting in their parking lot for two hours, and it didn’t smoke when started. For the next few days car was gradually smoking less with few exceptions. When I had the tank empty, I added gas additive( “tire people” gave me complementary one to clean fuel injectors, valves. That was after about 400miles that I drove the car. After adding this stuff to gas car would smoke when cold, and then it would smoke little bit, faint bluish smoke when driving off (that was the first).
Where I can test the old oil? (I also have the filter)
As far as the situation under valve cover I never saw it.
Thanks
Rob

[Kooter]

Rob, thanks for the detail information on the history of your car...at least from the time you acquired it. That helps a lot.

Here is a link to one (Amsoil) of the many firms who will analyze your engine oil and give you a report on the results: http://www.amsoil.com/products/g.html (By the way, I am not associated in any way with Amsoil in case you, or others, are wondering.)

The reason why the engine "knocked" for about four seconds was because the car had been sitting for so long. Using a 0W-30 synthetic engine oil will allow the oil to be pumped throughout the engine much faster during initial start-up regardless whether it's -30 degrees or 130 degrees. You will see more and more 0W-30 engine oils in the future.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the smoking you see on an irregular basis at initial start-up. The fuel additive causes this to happen and so does the engine flush. I believe you'll see that go away completely in due time.

As I said before, I would drive the car for 500 to 1,000 miles and change the oil and filter again. Next time use something like Mobil 1 5W-30 or 0W-30 synthetic engine oil. (I would not have the engine flushed again or use any more fuel treatments.) Then I would drive another 2,000 to 3,000 more miles and change the oil and filter again. I believe you'll find the engine is in good shape and the irregular smoking will stop after the remnants of the fuel additive and engine flush are gone.

From what I understand from you, your engine is NOT a candidate for a rebuild! I never thought it was... I think it's safe to say your engine is perfectly fine with no damage whatsoever.

Good luck!

Kooter

PS - If you really want to know about the condition of your engine and whether your old oil still had ample lubricating properties you may want to send off a sample but I don't think it's really necessary. However I would save a sample half quart or quart of the old oil if your curiosity ever got the best of you.

PPS - Aren't you glad you didn't take your car into a dealership and have a so-called mechanic tell you that your engine needed a complete rebuild? And believing him!!!

[Rolldubseatnugs]

try taking the heads off and getting the valve seals replaced...then work your way to taking off the oil pan and replacing the oil pump pick-up tube and clean the sludge out of the pan. a compression check is a good idea, but i'd say you're fine. the smoking is most likely due to the valve seals, because sludged oil doesnt drain into the pan when then engine sits...so overnight, when you start it, the sludge makes its way into the cylinder and burns off, which causes a blue smoke. good luck and if it doesnt go away, thats your guaranteed fix.

[somick]

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