Was I overcharged?

[ggking7]

My 1998 Camry has been very wobbly while driving on the freeway. The brakes have also been very squeaky and they sound like metal-on-metal, but only for the first few stop signs after starting it in the morning.

I took it to the mechanic, and for the brakes they ended up replacing the brake rotors and pads for $300. For the wobbling they replaced the ball joint or joints (plus alignment) for $390. After replacing the ball joint, they called and said the lower control arm bushing was missing and they installed one for $50.

I'm wondering if replacing the ball joint was necessary. Could the bushing have been entirely responsible for the car wobbling? Do these prices seem OK?

[ggking7]

I could really use some help here.

I got the Camry back and drove it for 20 minutes, rested it for a couple hours, and drove for another 20 minutes. There are definitely some problems. Here is a list of what was done:

- replaced front brake pads
- replaced front brake rotors
- topped off brake fluid
- changed oil
- replaced air filter
- replaced front left tire
- replaced ball joints
- replaced lower control bushing
- rotated, balanced, aligned wheels

The car pulls very strongly to the right now, which it did not do before. The ABS light is on now, and was not on before. The brakes still don't feel very strong. I drove a nearly-new Honda Civic around for a couple days while the Camry was being worked on, and its brakes were so much stronger.

I'll be bringing these problems up with them tomorrow, but I'd really appreciate any feedback from you guys. I'm way out of my element here.

[toyomoho]

Off hand the charges do not appear out of line.

Disk brakes can squeal a little when cold. If metal to metal contract caused by the pads being worn to the point the metal backing plate rides on the rotor there would be a grinding noise every time the brakes were applied.

In order to replace the ball joint the suspension would need to be taken apart. If there was a bad control arm bushing with the other parts off it would take just a little more work to get the control arm off and replace the bushing. This might explain the low price on installing the bushing.

If only the bushing was replaced the costs for bushing replacement would be much higher as the costs would now include removing most all of the other parts needed to change the ball joint plus a few others.

A badly worn ball joint or missing bushing can cause wondering-wobbling. Not having seen the ball joint, can not state if it was bad. There are tests that can be conducted on the suspension to determine if the joint has excess movement. The shop does not need to guess.

Are the brakes as good or bad as they were before the repairs? If the pads and rotors where not "worn out" or damaged you may not experience much change in braking.

Does the car have rear drum brakes (you can tell by looking at them and comparing to the front). If so they may need adjustment.

The Civic may have 4 wheel disk brakes and be a lighter car both which can improve braking. From driving Honda's they might just overall have better brakes. You can't expect one make of car to brake like another.

As to the car pulling to one side. Several factors could cause this.

Does the front of the car now have 2 different tires if so this could be causing the problem. Or higher or lower tire pressure in one tire.

Toyota does use a method to correct drift by unloosening and shifting the front suspension around (strut, knuckle where the tire mounts, etc). It may be when the suspension was taken apart it was not assembled in exactly the right place. These are VERY small shifts in part location. Ask if the shop checked the camber setting.

As to the ABS issue. The ABS system uses a sensor at each axle location (front and rear) to measure axle RPM. The sensors are wired to the ABS computer inside the car. When the shop took the suspension apart they needed to at least unplug this sensor to get the suspension parts off. It is possible the shop failed to reconnect the plug. It has also happened that a shop can damage the wiring or sensor itself when doing repairs.

If any of the above happens when the ABS computer runs its self test it will note this sensor is not working and turn on the ABS light. Note: when the ABS light is on, the cars anti-lock brake system is not working.

The shop should address this problem. They can run a test to determine exactly what is wrong with the ABS system and causing the light to trigger. If it is the sensor on the side of the car they worked on then they did something to the wiring or sensor to make it not work and the result is the light comes on.

The ABS light will not go out until the problem is fixed.

My guess is the sensors wiring was disconnected or the wiring or sensor damaged. But not being able to look at the car can only guess. If the ABS problem was caused by the shop, get on them to repair it at no cost! These sensors are not cheap to buy.

[ggking7]

toyomoho, thank you sincerely for taking the time to write. I feel much better having this information instead of relying only on what the shop tells me.

Disk brakes can squeal a little when cold. If metal to metal contract caused by the pads being worn to the point the metal backing plate rides on the rotor there would be a grinding noise every time the brakes were applied.

Before, the brakes would not really squeal, but they made a loud metallic grinding sound when cold. Now, they don't make that sound, but the stopping power still feels very weak. It feels like I really have to stomp on them to get them to stop the car.

A badly worn ball joint or missing bushing can cause wondering-wobbling. Not having seen the ball joint, can not state if it was bad. There are tests that can be conducted on the suspension to determine if the joint has excess movement. The shop does not need to guess.

I remember he said something about being able to move something with his finger and that was an indication that it was very bad.

Are the brakes as good or bad as they were before the repairs? If the pads and rotors where not "worn out" or damaged you may not experience much change in braking.

They feel exactly the same.

Does the car have rear drum brakes (you can tell by looking at them and comparing to the front). If so they may need adjustment.

I just compared the area between the axles and wheels, and they all seem to match, but I don't really know what I'm looking at.

Does the front of the car now have 2 different tires if so this could be causing the problem.

I just checked, and the 2 front tires actually match in every way. I was surprised.

Or higher or lower tire pressure in one tire.

I just tested the pressure in each tire and they're all about 30, except the new front left tire which is about 32.

when the ABS light is on, the cars anti-lock brake system is not working.

We're planning a trip soon, so we should get that fixed.

If the ABS problem was caused by the shop, get on them to repair it at no cost!

I'm 100% sure that light was not on before the car was dropped off at the shop. I'm on it.

[toyomoho]

Not sure what the mechanic meant by being able to move the part with his finger.

Typically checking a ball joint amounts to using a long pry bar between suspension parts the joint connects and looking for play in the ball joint. He might have been talking about the suspension arm. If a bushing was not there (there are 2) the mechanic should by hand be able to easily get excess movement between the arm and the car body.

A bad bushing(s) is not uncommon.

How much pedal travel is needed when applying the brakes?

How does the brake pedal feel when pressed? Firm, as a certain pedal travel limit is reached at max braking. Spongy/soft as in the pedal travel limit never really firms up and the pedal may continue to move down even in hard braking?

For rear drum brakes how much travel (number of clicks) does the emergency brake have before the handle or foot pedal travel reaches the end (being fully applied)?

A Goggle search should turn up hits on what a disk or drum brake looks like. You should be able to remove the hub cap to get a better look at the brake system, or using a flash light look around to the back side of the tire. If the brakes at the back look the same as the front (have the large exposed rotating disk) the rears are also disk brakes.

If you have drums (no large rotating disk) they may need adjustment. There may be too much travel between the shoe and drum. This will show itself in the amount of travel (clicks) needed to bring the emergency brake handle or pedal to the fully applied position. The handle/pedal via a cable is pulling the shoes up against the drum to prevent it from rotating (and the tire). The result is increased pedal travel before the brakes start applying.

If the pedal feels spongy (not firm) when pressing down, the brake system may have air in and need bleeding. The system is hydraulic, air in the system would cause problems. Again a Google search will turn up hits on how brakes work. Sometimes the front "rubber" brake hoses that connect the front brake lines to the brakes will start to fail. They will swell up a little when the pedal is pressed resulting in a spongy brake pedal.

If the car has rear disk brakes I don't think there is any adjustment for them. But the other issues stated above can still apply.

Your tire pressure is not that different to cause a drift problem. Look at the tire tread pattern, is one of the front ones different from the other side.

You might try swapping the front and rear tires to determine if this helps the pulling issue. Or increase the tire pressure in the tire on the side the pulls as a type of quick and dirty test/cheater fix (NOT the best fix but it does work with some problems).

As to getting the ABS fixed before the trip. The braking system will still be fully functional, the same as millions of other cars on the road that do not have ABS.

The issue is during hard braking the tires can be locked up. The ABS system prevents wheel lockup. A car with locked up wheels that is sliding along the pavement will take longer to stop and with the tires locked there may be a loss of steering control for the driver.

As to driving the car with the ABS system off, this is a personally safety issue you will need to make yourself.

I have driven cars without ABS (Camry, etc), cars where the ABS system was off (in some cases because the repair shop screwed up and damaged a wheel sensor), etc. In all cases I did not have a problem braking.

Suggest if driving the car with the ABS light on you leave a little more distance between yourself and the car in front of you and take extra caution when braking on ice. The car will take longer to stop in emergency "pedal to the floor braking" and if on ice the tires can lock up resulting in sliding.

It is not unheard of for a sensor, sensor wire, etc to be damaged during a repair and the ABS system now have problems. Or they failed to reconnect the sensor wire, sometimes dirt and grease can get on the sensor face, etc. But these are not your problems but the shop.

[islandboy57]

You mention the two front tires match perfectly, yet say that the left one is new. A difference in tread between the two could cause a problem. However - if you didn't have that problem before, it sounds like the shop did not do a thorough enough job..especially since your ABS light is on.

Things happen, and a good shop will make it right. I've had problems in the past with my mom's gen 3.5 after a VERY expensive brake job. Took it back a couple times until it was fixed. I forget what exactly they did but I know they replaced all four brake pads a second time and I think they had to adjust the e-brake twice. They eventually fixed the problem but I haven't taken either of our cars back since then.

I pay for everything with my credit card and I've disputed charges before and wouldn't hesitate to do it if my car repairs were not satisfactory.

[ggking7]

Thanks guys. The shop called yesterday and said they adjusted the rear drum brakes to be harder, and fixed the drift problem, and they said they had to use a torch to take the suspension apart and damaged the ABS sensor. They will replace it next week at no cost so I'm very happy with that. I'll report back after picking it up this morning.

islandboy57,
I always use a credit card too, partially so I can dispute the charge if necessary. My wife tried to dispute a charge once, and got nowhere because it was an in-person transaction and they had her signature. For them, the signature automatically meant no dispute. Have you successfully disputed a charge that you signed for?

[toyomoho]

Not sure I understand the issue with in person transaction with signature.

Federal law regulations apply in credit card disputes, see link below:

http://www.consumerlaw.org/issues/se...CardRights.pdf

Some credit card issues may enhance these terms as a customer service support issue.

Use only a MAJOR credit card such Visa, MC, NOT cards issued by sellers who carry their own customer credit.

Good job on follow up with the shop. Just make sure they carry through on the work they stated the had or would do. Shops do make errors but have encountered too many that are incompetent or try to enhance their income using dubious business practices.

[ShawnM]

At least they seem to be admitting fault in damaging the ABS sensor. I have to question why this wasnt caught along with the pulling problem on the final test drive after all the work was done.

[ggking7]

He said he saw the ABS light, but didn't know if it was on before the car was brought in. With the pulling, they admitted that they didn't have time to test drive it. They were very apologetic and humble about the whole thing.

After some more driving around, it is pulling just a bit to the left when the steering wheel is straight, so I'll have them fix that when they install the new ABS sensor.

Thanks again for your help guys.

Thank you for the link toyomoho. Have you disputed a transaction you've signed for?

[toyomoho]

No, only mail order items.

Again suggest you call your credit card provider about the signature issue. Most in-person transactions require a signature. This just means you agree to the charges, it doesn't mean the product is defect free, you were handed the wrong part at a parts store, etc.

The return policy is up to the store. But they can't sell defective parts, etc and not be expected to replace it.

Sometimes store sells are deemed final in the case of say going out of business, as such you can be stuck with the purchased item.

Find out what the stores policy is when doing business with them.

[islandboy57]

Originally Posted by ggking7

I always use a credit card too, partially so I can dispute the charge if necessary. My wife tried to dispute a charge once, and got nowhere because it was an in-person transaction and they had her signature. For them, the signature automatically meant no dispute. Have you successfully disputed a charge that you signed for?

If you don't mind me asking, who is your/your wife's card issuer? And there's two types of signatures IMO, one authorizing charges and one saying you received your order in satisfactory condition - the latter perhaps being a car repair. BUT, what shop will let you drive off without first signing the invoice? Most times you're signing for just the charges anyway, but I know at my local Toyota dealership you sign the invoice when you pick up your car, then again on the credit card slip.

I'd find a new credit card company if that's their normal policy, because then you'll never be able to dispute much of anything. My dispute was for an online order, but I did sign for the FedEx shipment and I of course electronically signed/authorized the charge. I told Citi that the item wasn't as described so I sent it back for a refund (which I never received), and then they did their magic and I had my money back.

Anyway, good luck with your car - sounds like they're going to make things right. A company's true colors shine not when they do the job right, but when something goes wrong and how they go about fixing it (or not fixing it). Sounds like you found a good shop

[ggking7]

The bank was Washington Mutual. It was very frustrating because they were not willing to reason at all. They said flat-out that if there's a signature there's nothing they can do.

[ggking7]

My steering problem has come back unfortunately.

It feels like the car can never drive straight. It wanders one way, and then even a tiny correction causes it to wander the other way. Does anyone know what could be causing this?

[ggking7]

Any idea on this? The shop sounds pretty dumbfounded.