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Old 03-15-2005, 07:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Arrow My clutch has started slipping and I dont know why

My clutch has started slipping and I dont know why. I recently installed a performance clutch and new flywheel when I changed my engine. Last week the clutch started slipping and I cant figure out why. Most of the symptoms you find online are for AT and dont apply for the manual. Basically, when I accelerate hard (or even a little bit) the RPMs goes up and the MPH is left behind. Then it eventually finds its grip. I am stumped. While I was changing the engine and clutch I went ahead and changed the rear main seal so I all but crossed that off the list. The reason it was on the list is because someone told me if you have an oil leak from the rear main seal; oil can get on the clutch and cause it to slip. The guy said this is the only real reason why a brand new clutch would begin slipping anyway. But he also said that the oil should burn off pretty quickly if the leak wasnt a continuous one.
I went to Advance Auto Parts and picked up a bottle of Lucas Stop Slip and added it to my drivetrain. I figured since I already changed the rear main seal maybe there was gear oil leaking somehow and affecting the clutch. Since this stuff is safe for manual transmissions I dont think it can hurt any... only help.
My friend told me to go and get some Gunk degreaser, remove the dust covers from the transmission, spray it all up in there to remove the oil (oh yeah, there was a lot of oil buildup on the inside from the rear main seal leak when we changed the clutch) and use a pressure washer to get it all out.
I'm likely to try this in a day or two if the the Lucas has not improved the situation. Lucas is said to have additives that stops transmission leaks and conditioners.
I know (from experience) that when an manaul transmission goes bad it slips out of gear and things like that but I dont know what to think about this slipping clutch on a manual tranny.

Here are some Facts.
  • 1994 Camry DX (I4 - Manual Trans.)
  • Changed Engine, clutch, flywheel 2 months ago and has been running great since
  • Performance clutch upgrade (not sure of stage#... ceramic and/or teflon)
  • Does have a leak somewhere around the engine/drivetrain assembly but have not pinpointed the source to date. I think it is coming from in between assembly which means rear main seal but dont want to admit that bcos it was just changed it.
  • Recently did a Tokico/Springtech upgrade (uneventfullly in-terms of the transmission)
Guys give me a hand, please!
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Sounds like a rear main seal! I wouldn't be driving it unless you want to smoke the clutch.

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Old 03-15-2005, 08:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Maybe you glazed it from riding it too much? Did you make sure the new flywheel was perfectly clean before you installed the clutch disc on it? No oil or anything on it at all?

Maybe you didnt get the rear main seated correctly? Or you chewed up the bore that it sits in trying to get the old one out?
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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No, the clutch and flywheel install was textbook. And this all started last week. I haven't driven the car hard at all for the last serveral weeks.
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What clutch did you buy.

I'm trying to understand from your post on how you've upgraded your clutch and have no clue what you installed.
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Old 03-16-2005, 06:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I am saying is that I dont remember if it were a stage 2 or stage 3 clutch. I will have to check my reciept to see.
If anyone has manual transmission experience (rebuilt or diagnostic) and have any good suggestions or thoughts please feel free to post them.

I know the flywheel was clean when we put it in. I dont know much about glazing your clutch but I am pretty good with a stick shift.

I have had a rear main seal leak before but have never had this type of problem. Anything is possible I suppose.
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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did you not do the new engine and the clutch and flywheel yourself? i dont know how you wouldnt have a clue... see thats why i always do my own shit. i HAVE to have a clue about whats going on with my car. i never trust it to anyone else.

when does it eventually find its grip? in 2nd gear? or what? does it blow through all of first, then catch in second? or what? of course when a clutch slips the rpms will go up but speedo wont. because the engine is moving but the car isnt.

additives and other shit is not going to solve your problem bro. there is no way that a chemical called stop slip will help a clutch slipping.
http://www.eliteone.com/lucas/trans.htm
"Lucas Transmission Additive was formulated to stop slip in automatic transmissions."
i dont know where you would have added it... in your engine oil or your tranny gear oil? either way its wrong, its made for auto tranny. its for when the torque converter starts to slip on an automatic.

the way a clutch works on a manual tranny is that it is DRY. there is no oil on a clutch and there is no tranny fluid.

it could be a few things...
-bad master cylinder
- - replace that if its old.
-bad slave cylinder
- - replace that if its old
-a leak somewhere in the system
- - take a look around
-really low clutch fluid
- - fill that shit up
-oil leaking from that side of the motor
- - look for oil around the bottom where the tranny mates with the motor
-clutch is going bad.
- - only way to tell is to take it apart and have a look at the disc.

dont put shit in your car that doesnt belong in it. you drive a standard, dont put in automatic tranny fluids. i dont know why someone at an autoparts store would suggest that. if THEY suggested that you get that, bring the bottle back and tell them you want your money back because they gave you a completely wrong suggestion. If it was your own dumb self that picked up that bottle and just went and paid for it, then dont trust yourself around cars ever again. no just kidding, just ask someone first when you see something that you think might work.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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time to pop the tranny
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Glazing happens when the clutch gets too hot. This can happen either from riding it too much or from holding your foot on the clutch pedal when your cruisin down the road. (ive seen it happen)
Most of the things that im thinkin of are just stupid mistakes.
One: The throwout bearing wasnt installed properly and it is pushing the clutch pressure plate open slightly even when the pedal is fully released.
Two: Air bubbles in the hydraulic clutch lines is getting hot and expanding, pushing the throwout bearing out and opening the pressure plate slightly.
Three: They sent you the wrong clutch kit, an oem replacement, and you installed it anyway, without making sure it was the right one.
Four: The clutch disc is in backwards. There is a certian way its supposed to go in. Whether it makes a difference or not, I dont know. Ive never wanted to waste my money bad enough to try putting one in the wrong way.

Other possibilities:
One: The hydraulic clutch system is leaking fluid all over your new clutch and its slipping. Im not sure how the release system works on these cars. I DO know that late model GM cars have the throwout bearing mounted ON the slave cylinder, which is wrapped around the input shaft of the transmission like a life preserver. If your slave cylinder setup was like that id immedatily guess that as the problem. But I would hope that Toyota has more sense than GM does, and would put the slave cylinder OUTSIDE the transmission so you can change it easily if it starts leaking.
Two: They sent you a faulty pressure plate, and it broke, so its not putting enough pressure on the clutch disc to keep it from slipping.
Most of these mean taking the tranny out again to find out. And its very unlikely that you will be able to get a refund on the clutch unless its the last problem I listed.
Rip it apart, and find out whats wrong with it.
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for the sage old advise zoni. The Lucas Tranny Fix was a shot in the dark I admit but I assure you it is used in manual transmissions as well.
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/dis...tid=2&loc=show
Use also in light duty manual transmissions to increase shifting ease and transmission life
My main goal was to add it as a stop leak and recondition any seals that might be on the verge.
All of your suggestions are good ones and I was actually going down that list before I read your response.
-Bad Master Cylinder: Cant be or shall I say shouldn't be because I changed it about a year ago.
-Slave Cylinder: Will check it in the morning
-Leak somewhere in the system: VERY POSSIBLE because I was noticing a small leak on top of the transmission body for sometime now. Didnt realize it until today but the only line that runs over that area is the clutch hydrolix system.
-Really low on clutch fluid: Hadnt occured to me to check but will do in the morning.
-Oil leakn on the bottom: I was going to check that when I washed the engine this weekend.
-Bad clutch: Looking less likely now

And about the clutch. I did put it in myself and I got a stage 3 clutch. The reason for the confusion was from the fact that when I was at the clutch shop I was going back and forth with the guy about which clutch was best for both street racing applications and normal everyday driving. Not that I do any street racing anyway. In all the commotion I simply forgot which which one I walked out with (stage 2 or 3). Not that the difference between the 2 has any bearing on the problem I am having now. But the clutch is a beauty to drive and took a lil getting used too since it engages kinda hard.

Here's something I found that might be of interest to the those with the same problem. I will keep you all posted.

I am experiencing some clutch slipping on my 325i. During normal driving at any speed, it drives and accelerates just fine. But when I try to launch my car from stop at anything over 3000rpm the clutch starts to slip until it eventually catches up. My question is:
1. Is this a sign of a worn clutch?
2. If it is, what part of the clutch needs to be replaced?
3. What is a good aftermarket clutch upgrade for a I6 e36
4. How about upgrading using clutch parts form a M3?

TIA,
Joe.
'93 325i
Doing 0 to 60 in 20 sec...

Joe,
Yes, this is indicative of a worn clutch. The disk is worn to a point
that the clamping force of the clutch plate on the disk is overcome by
the torque of the motor. Higher-rpm launches will exacerbate, or even
make worse [a Dave Barry-ism] this situation because:
a: higher rpm ~=more torque than just off-idle (more torque, obviously,
at 3000 than 1500 rpm on your BMW motor)
b: sliding friction is less than static friction, plus
c: you're not off the clutch 100% as you launch, reducing clamping force,
hence more slip.

STOP doing hard launches like this. ANY time you slip the clutch from
here on out will accelerate the wear and hence the amount of slippage.
I assume you knew this, though.

It is ALSO indicative of contaminant on your clutch disk friction surface
or glazing. A rear main crankshaft oil seal leak can get motor oil on the
flywheel and clutch. Doh.

Last edited by REAPER STRAIN; 03-16-2005 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Kooter that's some good advice. Thanks.
Installation went flawlessly so I am POSITIVE nothing was installed incorrectly. The clutch was very clear on the orientation (which side went to the flywheel) and I personally went to a clutch specialty shop and picked up my clutch from them. I made him verify that it was compatible with my model and year. Bearings and all that was new and installed properly. The clutch has been in for 2 months now without a hitch. These problems only started recently. Last week Thursday.

The slave cylinder is thankfully located on the outside (right in front) of the transmission. I haven't checked the level but if it is low I will definately fill and bleed that bad boy. I am definately eyeing the clutch hydrolix system and/or a fluid leak coming in contact with the clutch and the fly wheel. Im hoping of those simple senarios anyway.
As for the pressure plate theory.... I am not sure about that one. I have seen that they almost always only have excessive wear on the fingers or are bent or broken. I am 99.9% sure this isnt the case bcos I haven't raced the car nor have I hear any of the tell-tale popping sounds when these fingers are worn.
I'll keep you informed

Last edited by REAPER STRAIN; 03-16-2005 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Here's some easy reading boyz.
Enjoy!

http://www.automotivearticles.com/pr...xplained.shtml
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Old 03-16-2005, 10:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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SLIPPING AWAY
One complaint that generates a lot of clutch work is slipping. Clutches are supposed to slip while the clutch is being engaged so the vehicle doesn’t jerk or lurch forward when starting out. The clutch also needs to slip when the gears are changed to ease the shock on the transmission and drivetrain. But once the clutch pedal is fully released, the clutch should hold firm and provide a solid coupling between the engine and transmission. If it doesn’t, something is wrong and needs to be investigated.


Slipping will be most noticeable when the engine is under load, as when lugging at low speed in a high gear, when driving up a hill, when accelerating to pass another vehicle or when towing a trailer.

A little slippage usually leads to more slippage. Slippage increases friction and produces heat. The hotter the clutch gets, the less able it is to maintain its grip — and the more it slips, the hotter it gets. The vicious cycle that results can burn the clutch facings and damage the flywheel and pressure plate. So the sooner the problem is diagnosed and repaired, the less likely these other components are to be damaged.

Normal wear is the most likely cause of slipping if the disc is worn down to the rivets and the clutch has high mileage. Oil leaking from a faulty rear main crankshaft seal or transmission input shaft seal can also contaminate the clutch linings and cause the clutch to slip.

If a newly installed clutch is slipping, the most likely causes would be oil or grease contamination, incorrect release system adjustment, a defective cable adjuster, a blocked clutch master cylinder port or binding slave cylinder, a misaligned or improperly installed release bearing, or improper flywheel machining of a step or cup flywheel.

One way to check for slippage is to test drive the vehicle and lug the engine at slow speed in high gear. If the engine races, you’ve confirmed the problem.

The clutch can also be checked in the service bay by setting the parking brake, chocking the wheels, putting the transmission into high gear and slowly releasing the clutch pedal (make sure nobody is standing in front of the vehicle when you do this!). If the engine stalls immediately, the clutch is not slipping. If the engine continues to run when the clutch pedal is fully released, the clutch is slipping badly and needs repair. If the engine slows, but continues to run, the clutch is slipping.

If the vehicle is equipped with a dual-mass flywheel (late-model Ford pickups with 6.9L and 7.3L diesel engines, as well as some luxury European imports), a bad flywheel may be the cause of the slippage. Carefully examine the old clutch for heat marks on the pressure plate, disintegrated disc friction material and contamination of the friction material from external oil leaks. If no such evidence is found, the problem is the flywheel.

An aftermarket solid flywheel can be installed in place of an OEM dual-mass flywheel (if available) to save your customer some money. A solid flywheel is less apt to cause future driveability problems, but the trade-off may be increased drivetrain harshness.
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Old 03-17-2005, 12:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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these trannys are set up with the slave cyl on the outside, then that pushes a shift fork which pulls out the throwout bearing & disc.
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Old 03-17-2005, 03:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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A couple added points:
You can't put the clutch disc on backwards, it won't fit. The hub will hit the flywheel.

I'd say:
1: flywheel is glazed
2: oil is leaking onto clutch

I'd say really baby it (no more than say 20% throttle) for a few days, and it should clear up if it's glazed. It's happened several times since I converted my car to a m/t that my clutch ended up glazed. First was because I didn't break it in like I should have (1000 miles of babyin it) and the rest were because I let other people drive my car who don't really know how to properly drive a stick. If it's lubricant on the clutch, it will probably chatter too.

First of all I'd put it on a hoist or jack stands and pull the inspection cover on the tranny. Then you can see the clutch and if there is any lubricant on it.
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