RPM Issues while Starting - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

Venkatesh · 07-18-2005, 02:50 PM

Hello Everybody,

Just this morning, I started my Camry (1996 I4, 194000 miles). The engine rpm floated at 800, right where it has always floated while idling. I was waiting for about a minute or so when the engine rpm suddenly surged to 2500. I quickly stopped the car and tried to figure out what was going on. There were no obvious problems, so I tried starting it again. No dice. After letting it sit for ten minutes, I was able to start it, with much difficulty. This time, the care idled at 600 rpm and showed no signs of changing from that speed. I was able to move it roughly ten feet in reverse before the engine stopped.

I removed the ECU fuse and let the car sit for a while (2+ hours). At that point, I tried starting again. This time, the car started right up, but idled at 600 rpm for two minutes. Then, the engine rpm magically rose to 1200 for a few seconds, then fell to 1000. It stayed at 1000 for about half a minute, and then the engine stopped again.

Any thoughts?

Lord_Anarchy · 07-18-2005, 03:06 PM

Injectors? I mean, wait for the real gurus to come but it sounds like you should look into checking your injectors. Hmmm.. what else can you check? Fuel filter, and fuel pump. I'm out of ideas at the moment but maybe you can atleast run some seafoam thru it.

Meanwhile, what's the last thing you did to your car, motor wise? IAC? But, that's ECU controlled. Hmmm.. air filter? I doubt it... But, it seems like when you put it to do work (reversing) it died and it can barely start up to begin with. Do you have any mods to your motor?

As far as that starting "with much difficulty", were their any unusual sounds? Would having no oil cause this? Hmm... Try to answer my question and let's see if we can get to the bottom of it...

P.S. When you did get it to run in the morning at a steady 800 rpm, did you hear any weird engine noises? How about when you had it at 600? Shuddering, sputtering, excess shake?

Venkatesh · 07-18-2005, 03:14 PM

Oil is fairly clean - changed roughly 3000 miles ago. Motor is completely stock.

With difficult meant that I needed many tries to start it, needed to provide extra fuel during starting, and needed to keep ignition on for a good amount of time.

Before the second try at starting it, I had thought it was temperature - it was over 95*F when I tried starting it first. But the second try was a around 85*F and outside temperature can't cause things like that, can it?

In the morning, at 800rpm, there was nothing unusual. At 600 rpm, the later start, there was noticeable shuddering.

Venkatesh · 07-18-2005, 06:29 PM

Update:

I just tried starting it again. It started right up, but still idled at 600 rpm. Shortly after, the engine rpm once again surged, but this time only to 1000 rpm. Then the engine stopped again. However now any attempts at cranking the car after that have failed. It just keeps trying and trying to start, but the engine never "catches".

The service manual tells me to check the Fuel System Circuit first. Then it tells me to check the manifold absolute pressure circuit, and finally the IAC valve circuit. Know of any ways I can check these without Toyota diagnostic tools?

And know of anything that could be an obvious cause of these problems?

V6LE_CAMRY · 07-18-2005, 06:33 PM

What engine does your car have? I cant find an I4 on my manual

But if your car has the dignostics port on the engine you can test idle speed by doing the following. (this is from haynes manual)

1. Aply the parking brake, shift the transaxle to park or nutral.

2. Using a jumper wire, bridge terminals TE1 and E1 of the check electrical connecter.

3.The engine speed should increase to approximatly 1,000 to 1,200 rpm for five seconds then return to normal idle speed. NOTE: on 3VZ-FE models the idle speed may not increase, instead listen for a clicking sound from the IAC valve, indicating operation.

a. If the engine speed changes as described, The IAC valve is okay.

b. if the engine doe not change as described, measure the IAC valve resistance.

4. Disconect the jumper wire.

Also see if your electrical check is at the conner, by the wipers motor.

Hope this work tell us if it helped.

Venkatesh · 07-18-2005, 07:23 PM

The engine I have is the 5S-FE. I can't start the engine anymore, so I can't test the IAC valve in operation. I am testing all the sensors I can without starting the car, but there are some things that need a running car to test.

I have already tested the IAT sensor and am working on testing the TPS right now. Tommorow, I will take apart the glove box and get to the terminals back there, to see whats going on.

dexter_5000 · 07-18-2005, 07:26 PM

you need three things for an engine to run fuel, air, and spark those the simple three to start with.

ag6286 · 07-18-2005, 11:45 PM

i find it highly unlikely but check ur distributor in case its loose, if so do the obvious and tighten it down to its ORIGINAL position. Check ur timing as well. Check the air filter in case its clogged. like one of the guys above said be jump TE1 and E1 under the driver side and read the codes, if any. If u dont know them, keep track and post them and we will help identify. wen was the last time u did a tune up? check ur spark wires for corosion or damage. check any electrical (main one only) connectors for corrosion. those r just some simple things to start with

after re-reading wut u posted, one word that could do this is simple: timing (even being a few degrees off on the cams will cause the engine to continuously turn over and not start, i know from much personal experience. Other timing, which i found can be fixed via distributor, issues include the idling up and down, happened to my 3vzfe and my bros 7mgte)

Lord_Anarchy · 07-19-2005, 02:50 AM

How's timing go again? To retard you turn counter-clockwise? Or is it the reverse?

Yeah, defintely check your spark plugs and wires for wear. Compare your plugs tips to this chart:

http://xylem.syros.aegean.gr/~modest..._diagnoses.htm

Check your distributor and the rotor arm. Could it be a dying fuel pump?

Venkatesh · 07-19-2005, 08:50 AM

I was checking the fuel pump and fuel pump circuit this morning and I found an interesting problem - I was using the 1994 service manual, as posted in the wonderful sticky in this forum. If you open up eg1.pdf (the 5S-FE manual) and turn to page 177, the schematic of the Fuel Pump Circuit, you will see that the EFI main relay is triggered by the Ignition Switch Relay.

The testing procedure located just below that schematic tells you to short pins +B and FP in the DLC 1, allowing power to flow to the fuel pump without needing the Circuit opening relay to be active. This means that you should be able to operate the fuel pump with the ignition in ON, without the engine having been started.

First, I measured the voltage at pin +B, the output of the EFI Main Relay, with the Ignition in the ON position. I got 0 volts, which seems to mean that the EFI Main Relay doesn't get power until the car is either starting or has been started. I was unable to test power here during cranking, but I will soon.

I'm not sure how I can test the fuel pump's operation now. Any thoughts?

And does the Ignition Switch Relay provide power to terminal IG2 when the ignition is ON or does the car need to be started for it to provide power?

Thanks,

PS: I just went hunting for the fuel pump connector. I found the fuel pump lead wire, but there is no connector along its entire length in my car. I even checked under the Floor service cover, but the wire goes into a wiring tract, all without connectors and taped to the floor with yellow tape. Is there any other place I can check the resistance of the fuel pump? Preferrably without dismantling it?

V6LE_CAMRY · 07-19-2005, 07:52 PM

Have you checked your fuel filter yet? sorry if you been asked this question already but my eyes hurt right now to read through that.

Venkatesh · 07-20-2005, 06:00 PM

And the saga of the Camry continues...

I tried to check the fuel pump, as the service manual tells me to do. However I can't - the manual says that there will be a connector, but my car has none. Short of splicing the wire, I have no way of measuring the resistance of the fuel pump.

Yesterday, in the evening, the car suddenly decided to be friendly. It had refused to cooperate earlier yesterday, either starting and running for a few minutes, or failing to start. However, it did start easily yesterday evening. The car idled at 1000 rpm and ran. It even ran well enough for me to drive it around, approximately 4 or 5 miles. It ran, but felt a little sluggish. When I got back home, I opened the hood, and was greeted by a wave of heat. The engine seemed to be extremely hot, though the temperature gauge wave only at the halfway mark. I began to think that this was a cooling problem.

So today, I checked all the coolant connections. I can't think of a way to check the water pump, but it was replaced 80,000 miles ago, so I didn't think that it was that.

To test that theory of too much heat, I disconnected the ECT switch connector for the fans, to let them run continuously. I started it and just took it for a ride, on the same path I took yesterday. When i started the car, it idled at 1000 rpm. I took it out, and it stalled along the way, at a stop sign. I checked the engine, and it was not excessively hot. I was able to restart it, and took it home. When I restarted it, it idled at 800 rpm and started quite willingly, which I thought was a good sign.

When I got home, I let it sit and cool down for about an hour. Then I tried starting it again. This time, it failed to start on the first try and idled at 1000 rpm on the 2nd. There were strong smells of gasoline, so I stopped immediately.

Is this the end of the line for my Camry?

V6LE_CAMRY · 07-20-2005, 09:35 PM

Well the only thing that i can think of is that you have a faulty fuel pump. That has happened to a mini van that i had, one day after comming back from the mall i put it in the garage and about an hour later i had to go back and it din't start. later that night i hit the gas tank because i had now figured that the fuel pump had zeised up, then i tried to start it and it started like if there was no problem. Then the next morning it started and i took it to school, when i got back i parked it in the garage and started it and turned it off about 5 times and then the fuel pump quit again so that night i went to get a new fuel pump and sice the it never had any more problems. It took me about 4 hours to do teh whole thing because I had to drop the gas tank and it was still 75% full. Man that was a pain in the ass. but the camry should not be a problem because the fuel pump is located under the back seat, all you have to do is take off the back seat and take off the black cover.

Let us know if that turned out to be the problem.

V6LE_CAMRY · 07-20-2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Is this the end of the line for my Camry?

Not it's not, camry's usually have a very long life to come. My aunt has a 94 camry with four cylinders and it has more than 205,000+ miles and still running good.

burchard · 07-21-2005, 03:11 PM

Have you ever changed you engine coolant temp sensor?. Try to start the car with the ECT sensor disconnected. If you are able to start the car then measure the resistance ( ohms) of the ECT temp sensor sevral tiems while the car is warming up. The resistance should decrase to 0.6-0.2 k ohms. Refer to the repair manual for the ohms values.