Thinking of swapping 2vzfe V6 for 3sfe I4

[es250nut]

I'm not sure, but it's highly likely I'll have to rebuild my engine or swap it out... My ES250 (stick) has developed a bit of a nasty rod tap.

So here are my options:

1. Rebuild the current 2vzfe engine. Cost $700-$1500
2. Aquire JDM 1vzfe 2.0l V6 and drop it in. Cost $550-$800
3. Swap in 3sfe or 3sgte. Cost $450 up

I'm seriously considering a 3sfe transplant for these reasons:

1. Fuel economy, all my 3sfe Camrys averaged around 30+MPG both of my Lexus get around 23-25MPG with the 2vzfe and the power difference doesn't seem all that much.

2. Donor vehicle readily available for 3sfe ECU, wiring harness, axles and mounts, as I have a 88 Camry parts car (stick).

3. Overall cost of getting replacement parts ect.

So anybody think this is a dumb idea? I realize that the fuel economy isn't going be be quite as good as a 3sfe Camry but it should be a marked improvement.

Now for the technical questions:

1. If I do this, would I be able to mount the 3sfe to the manual transaxle already in the car?

2. When I swap in the ECU and 3sfe wiring harness, will there be any issues with the ABS, Cruise Control, Tach or other electircal systems?

3. Should I also swap out the exhaust system, or can I use the current exaust?

Opinions & expert advise please!

[jackfrost1031]

That's a travesty, but well understood as 2vz are hard to get parts for cheaply.

I am mostly certain a 3s block will mate up to the 2vz's tranny, it's a S52 I believe. I know an E153 fits a 2vz and a 5s, so one would assume that the same bolt pattern exists on a 3s block.

I don't know about the ECU, but I think the ABS would be the thing most likely to cause problems. Again, I don't really know much about this.

The 3sfe alltrac I have uses a different downpipe (obviously) but I don't know about the rest of the exhaust. The 3s downpipe comes up to the front of the engine, whereas the 2vz's dumps behind the engine up next to the firewall. I can look some tomorrow if I get a chance and make some comparisons, but my assumption is that if you just got a 3s downpipe you could have it welded up to the exhisting pipework pretty easily.

[chronoti]

well he moves the exhaust lines from the camry over he be fine.

custom mounts everywhere.

1vz? didnt even know they existed ...... you can do the 2mz imported it's a 2.5l but newer ....

and dont forget about the 3s-ge. or if you feel like you have nothing better to do you can go to the 5s and get more power.

[JetspeedCamry]

Haha..you already should know what my thoughts are....dumping the 2VZ...

I don't find the 2VZ all that bad for economy at all, and being stick, its a bonus. Only thing is the cost.

[terrastrife]

the manual is what you want... auto's rob fuel economy, and manuals are 1000% more fun to drive.

[es250nut]

Originally Posted by chronoti

custom mounts everywhere.

? From what I'm able to gather from examining the Camry/ES250 engine bay the mounts from the donor car should bolt right in. Or did Toyota have a different frame for the 2vzfe Camrys? Hmm I'll have to take some measurements... I might have to transfer the lower crossmember but those just bolt on.

Edit: If I do this, I'll try to document what exactly I do to transfer a 3s based engine into a 2vzfe engine bay. That way if anyone wants to do the opposite they can reverse the proceedure...

[88 LE]

Originally Posted by es250nut

1. If I do this, would I be able to mount the 3sfe to the manual transaxle already in the car?

2. When I swap in the ECU and 3sfe wiring harness, will there be any issues with the ABS, Cruise Control, Tach or other electircal systems?

3. Should I also swap out the exhaust system, or can I use the current exaust?

1. Yes.

2. Your going to have to do some rewiring. You can't just swap in the wiring harness from a 3S-FE and expect stuff to work.

3. You can use parts of your current exhaust (probably from resonator on back). Then join the downpipe from the 3S-FE to your existing exhaust. Have to fab and weld something up.


The left side engine mount is different on a 2VZ-FE vs. 3S-FE. So you'll have to figure something out.

[chronoti]

Originally Posted by es250nut

? From what I'm able to gather from examining the Camry/ES250 engine bay the mounts from the donor car should bolt right in. Or did Toyota have a different frame for the 2vzfe Camrys? Hmm I'll have to take some measurements... I might have to transfer the lower crossmember but those just bolt on.

Edit: If I do this, I'll try to document what exactly I do to transfer a 3s based engine into a 2vzfe engine bay. That way if anyone wants to do the opposite they can reverse the proceedure...

the mounts are in difrent places but if you can break the old mounts off the other or take parts of the sub frame you prolly can get away with out custom mounts. sounds like your going to have a fun project.

[white90dx]

Keep the current 2vz... You will be very happy you did. The rebuild will be much cheaper than the 'cost' of labor to change out the wiring harness and all the parts, even if you do all the work your self. A 4-cylinder WILL be significantly slower than the 2vz. People say they aren't very different because they compare A/T 2vz's to M/T 3s's.

Hey, you say you have a I-4 M/T parts car? Can I have the shift cables??? Pweease? I broke one of mine. PM me with a price!

-Charlie

[es250nut]

Pros vs. Cons for an I4 swapped in place of the V6

Pros:

Cost (Actual outlay of $)
2 donor vehicles available for wiring harness, ECU, Airflow sensor, radiator, exhaust, motor mounts, subframe & other possible incidentals.
Possible fuel economy (may not actually happen)
Challenge of mechanical/electical ability (I'm up to it)

Cons:

Performance Loss (40 lost HP)
Time (who knows how long this would take me)
Not very popular. (Might loose some face, at least with some in this group)

Unknown:
Fuel Economy. What will the approxamately 300lbs of extra curb weight do?


Pros vs. Cons for V6 rebuild/replace

Pros:

New spare parts already on hand (Timing belt, Idler bearings, clutch, water pump, full gasket and seal set, & PCV valve)
Fresh engine: Oooh what a feeling
No loss in power & possibly even a gain over what I've been driving with.
I get to keep the cool looking "LEXUS" on the valve cover. (Plus I don't loose any face. )

Cons:

Cost. Rebuilds are not cheap. (done properly anyway)

Unknown:

How much damage has been done to the engine at this point???


Tentative conclusions:

I agree it would be better to stay with the V6, but the fact that at the moment my budget is severly limited I may have to go with the swap.

Anyone have a rebuild kit for a 2vzfe sitting around gathering dust?

[Cyorke]

Are you thinking it is rod bearing. If it is rod bearing why not pull the pan off and pull a couple of the rod caps off to see how bad it may be. once you pull them you should be able to see any scoring that is on the crank or bearings so you may be abel to have an idea of how to proceed.
And are you sure it is not something simple like the water pump. When the bearings go out on those things they can make one hellofa noise. My 1MZ is doing it now. If I didnt know better I would think the bottom end is starting to go on it.

[JetspeedCamry]

Originally Posted by es250nut

Anyone have a rebuild kit for a 2vzfe sitting around gathering dust?

If anyone did, i'd fly to the US personally to buy it.

[es250nut]

Originally Posted by Cyorke

Are you thinking it is rod bearing. If it is rod bearing why not pull the pan off and pull a couple of the rod caps off to see how bad it may be. once you pull them you should be able to see any scoring that is on the crank or bearings so you may be abel to have an idea of how to proceed.
And are you sure it is not something simple like the water pump. When the bearings go out on those things they can make one hellofa noise. My 1MZ is doing it now. If I didnt know better I would think the bottom end is starting to go on it.

Here is the part I didn't include. This sound was accompanied by a severe loss of oil, possibly a blown seal because I had checked the oil level just hours before, and a quite noticable loss of power. So I need to figure out where the oil is going and what damage has actually been done to the engine. I left the car in town (30 miles) from where I live, since I didn't dare drive it back home with those symtoms.

[Tommy]

i would defintaly pull the pan off and maybe the head off the V6 first and see what type of damage you are working with and decide from there.

If you get a JDM 3SFE, they have around 140hp, and it is a definate improvement over the USDM ones, so you wouldnt be loosing as much hp. But you will be loosing all the v6 torque.

As far as the extra weight goes, pretty sure your car would be weighing less after the swap, The V6 camry's are heavier than the i4's because they have a heavy V6 engine.

I still vote for the rebuild of the V6 though. Your gonna spend about $500 just for the 3SFE, then you need to do all the general mantiance work, replacing seals, belts stuff like that, that will run you another $200ish. Thats $700 right there, and there is always extra expence. Not to mention the extra time its gonna take to get the 3SFE in there.

Like you said, youve got a lot of spare parts for the v6, a rebuild kit on a v6 cant be that much more expensive than a 3SFE and all its stuff, and in the long run you know you would be happier with the v6.

[lexusmech]

I had the same problem about 6 months ago...well sorta. After I replaced the bearings, turned out to be a broken piston ring that was tapping every time it went up and down.

My problem was that I replaced the connecting rod bearings but over tightened them somehow. I think I went 3 90 degree turns instead of 2. Water under the bridge. I imagine you could very well get away with just replacing rod bearings. Multiple guys at work said they've done many times with that motor. " Just roll in a new set" There are different thicknesses of bearings, and as long as the crank isn't scored, you could just install new bearings. Pretty simple actually even though maybe a pain from underneath in a garage.

PLEASE READ: I found a guy that I bought a balanced rebuilt bottom end from in TX for $1200+150 shipping. The rods were also magnafluxed and shot peened. Whether that helped or not....I'm not sure. I'm very happy with the motor. He owns an independant Toyota shop and builds race motors on the side. His number is (281) 339-5487 in Baycliff Texas.

If you use a rebuild bottom end: Do some head work. I did some basic port matching using an air roto tool. Also there is a lot of head material that blocks the injector ( or so it looks) which I reduced. If you don't know how to port match, its easy and better than paying for a full port and polish. IMO polish is for full on racing. I also milled the heads .010 but i'm not exactly sure how much the comp went up. I think you could go more. If you have the time, see just how much head material you can take off....also mind your intake.

Another crazy idea: Put a 3vz crank in the 2vz block. The only problem I think would be needing shorter rods. If I would've had more free time, I totally would've tried this. MR2 rods? Cressida rods? We have DIY yards here so pulling these parts would've been easy.

If you wanted to transplant a 3vz, that would be a lot too. You would have to transplant the whole deal. The intake, heads and block are all different. but never got to compare the mounts much.

If you have any q's for me, PM me and I'll see what I can find