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What up everyone. I am trying to find someone who has done or tried the 3sgte swap in a Gen 4 camry. I've done tons of searches and I know people have tried it in a Gen 4 before. I've already begun buying the parts/engine needed for the swap but im just wondering what problems i should expect. Please help
Good luck man, I was going to do it until my state really tightened up its emissions and safety laws. I would never be able to pass legally. But my research did prove top me that it is very possible. I found a guy who specializes in crazy swaps like this in my area. He loves Toyotas and offered to do the whole thing for $3500 which is basically the price of parts and no labor. He was going to order a full clip so we would have all the parts we would need for the engine, uncut harness, ecu, igniters, etc. Then we were going to use an E153 tranny that he had laying around. The engine mounts need to be custom fabricated and yuou have to get creative with the exhaust and intercooler piping. What you need to do is join a celica alltrac board and get on MR2OC and talk to the 3SGTE guys. Check the laws in your state too!!! I ended up swapping my tranny and now I am just turboing my 5S which has less potential and is less reliable than a 3S swap. So dont do what I did, check first!!!
'97, I think you've been misinformed, a 5S is actually a stronger block than the 3s and it also has more displacement. The reason the 3S flows better is due to the fact that 5S has internal cam gears which don't allow any adjustable cam timing beyond skipping teeth (which moves quite a few degrees at a time). This means you can't adjust overlap, which can hurt an NA car.
There's other things that can be done to help the 5S out though, a good port job (not someone going to town with a dremel), oversized valves, cams and if you want to get wild, better valve springs. I'm also working with my engine builder on getting an adjustable external cam gear. This won't allow adjustable overlap, but it'll allow you to get your cams dialed in properly.
'97, I think you've been misinformed, a 5S is actually a stronger block than the 3s and it also has more displacement.
I wouldn't say a 5S block is necessarily stronger then a 3S block. Their both iron blocks.
5S has a larger bore, different crank (more stroke and bigger rod journals), and taller deck height.
However a 5S-FE has different internals vs. a 3S-GTE. 3S-GTE has forged internals.
Quote:
The reason the 3S flows better is due to the fact that 5S has internal cam gears which don't allow any adjustable cam timing beyond skipping teeth (which moves quite a few degrees at a time). This means you can't adjust overlap, which can hurt an NA car.
G head design (3S-GTE) is totally different vs. a F head design.
Wider valve angle (45 vs. 22).
Bigger ports. The ports are huge compared to a F head.
True DOHC. The cams are seperate and each cam has its own camgear. No internal scissor gear bullshit.
'97, I think you've been misinformed, a 5S is actually a stronger block than the 3s and it also has more displacement.
What I meant was that a 3S will be cheaper to make power out of right away. You can boost a 5S but so far, most every boosted 5S has blown up after any significant milage and there is virtually no aftermarket support for the 5S when compared to the 3S. The 3S already comes stock with what a boosted 5S will put out and the 3S is meant to run that way all day long. It was designed as a turbo motor. Then you can build up the 3S with aftermarket parts and it will have more potential at a cheaper price tag. Sure a 5S can be built up to be very strong (Wraith) but look how much it costs. A 3S just needs a grand or two and you are way past what any 5S could ever hope to make in that price range. That being said, a 5S is a larger displacement so it will spool the same stock CT26 a bit faster I guess and it has a strong crank and block. A 5S like mine that is OBD2 will pass state emissions fine and a 3S whick is OBD0 will not pass in a car that is supposed to have OBD2.
but you already have a 5s in it, and getting a 3s in means new mounts and anxles and ecu.
in the states you have A LOT of 5s aftermarket support, i hav eno idea what youre on about "less" support. you probably have more 5s support then 3s support in the states having that engine so common in mr2 and celicas. i bet plenty of shops have worked with it and know good internals etc and what fits whatever. support doesnt mean kits you buy from japan and bolt on, im talking about tuners and custom parts, not that it would take much work to bolt on a turbo upgrade kit for a 3sgte to a 5sfe anyway.
i fyou need and obd2 engine you could always get a lte model 3sge and turbo it.
and stfu if ya gonna say cr is too high, there are A LOT of hi cr turboed 3sge's around (easy to get 350hp street daily driver reliable out of gen3/4 3sge's turbo or not the same CANNOT be said with older 3sgte's - you get at most 300 super reliable -- in terms of bottom end strength, this includes gasket boys).
and if ya gonna do this swap, legality is already out of the question unless you plan to spend ALOTs of money on it anyway.
the only blown up turbo 5sfe's are the ones that either are done unreliable (you can have an unreliable 3sgte too, the stock wastegate creeps pretty bad) and spike or something goes horribly wrong. there are plenty of high mileage 5sfte's here.
man i gotta stop talking. you gotta do some more research.
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125 front wheel horsepower with major retard issues between 4500-5200RPM -
OD switched off, even when not in 3rd results in major power loss/rpm drop.
Hey 97camryman, how did the e153 tranny swap go for you. I plan to do that too and ive located one in a junkyard thats in good condition. The guy wants $1000 and im thinkin that i can find it somewhere else cheaper. How long did the tranny swap take?
I wouldn't say a 5S block is necessarily stronger then a 3S block. Their both iron blocks.
5S has a larger bore, different crank (more stroke and bigger rod journals), and taller deck height.
However a 5S-FE has different internals vs. a 3S-GTE. 3S-GTE has forged internals.
That's obvious. I'm assuming that both are going to be built engines though. Stock forged doesn't matter if you're swapping pistons anyhow. Likewise, the valve angle isn't the greatest, but it's not a huge concern. Valve size should be more of a concern. What it really boils down to though is the valve angle and the fact that you can't adjust the cam timing. Porting will correct any issues of port sizes. My head will run a 34-34.5mm valve and maintain an 86% aspect ratio with good velocity. That's a much bigger valve than a 3sgte contains and better flow. You obviously can port both heads. One of the strongest setups to run is a 5sge or 5sgte. This uses a 5S' bottom end.
What I meant was that a 3S will be cheaper to make power out of right away. You can boost a 5S but so far, most every boosted 5S has blown up after any significant milage and there is virtually no aftermarket support for the 5S when compared to the 3S. The 3S already comes stock with what a boosted 5S will put out and the 3S is meant to run that way all day long. It was designed as a turbo motor. Then you can build up the 3S with aftermarket parts and it will have more potential at a cheaper price tag. Sure a 5S can be built up to be very strong (Wraith) but look how much it costs. A 3S just needs a grand or two and you are way past what any 5S could ever hope to make in that price range. That being said, a 5S is a larger displacement so it will spool the same stock CT26 a bit faster I guess and it has a strong crank and block. A 5S like mine that is OBD2 will pass state emissions fine and a 3S whick is OBD0 will not pass in a car that is supposed to have OBD2.
I don't think you fully understand things.
A couple boosted 5S's (here) have blown up. There's many more boosted 5S's in the world. There's quite a few boosted 5S mr2's. A lot of them put down serious power reliably.
If someone so chooses, they can build a 5sgte on a very small budget. You just have to know what to look for and what you'll need. A couple hook-ups won't help either.
a grand or two is about where I'll be with my build shortly. The difference is, I'm making an NA car. people like nate are still starting out with their cars and breaking them in with boost. This is the way people boost. You don't start out at 20psi, you work your way up checking for leaks all the way up.
If you want, I'll post up some dyno's of turbo 5S's and NA 5S's.
I don't think you fully understand things.
A couple boosted 5S's (here) have blown up. There's many more boosted 5S's in the world. There's quite a few boosted 5S mr2's. A lot of them put down serious power reliably.
If someone so chooses, they can build a 5sgte on a very small budget. You just have to know what to look for and what you'll need. A couple hook-ups won't help either.
a grand or two is about where I'll be with my build shortly. The difference is, I'm making an NA car. people like nate are still starting out with their cars and breaking them in with boost. This is the way people boost. You don't start out at 20psi, you work your way up checking for leaks all the way up.
If you want, I'll post up some dyno's of turbo 5S's and NA 5S's.
Wow, sorry guys I didnt mean to offend anyone here. I still don't see the aftermarket support for the 5S being more prevalent than the 3SGTE because the 3S is a performance motor and the 5S is an economy motor. True there are more 5SFE's out there but most people who buy a car with a 5S are buying it for reliable transportation not to mod into a high horsepower monster. If you walk into a performance shop and ask for parts for a MR2 turbo motor there are cams, adjustable gears, all kinds of turbo upgrade kits, many pistons, rods, etc. Mention a 4 banger Camry and they look at you like you just stepped off the mother ship. They are like what? There are performance parts for a 5SFE? true, there are forged pistons and nice rods by JE, arias I think, Eagle rods, pauter rods but it seems they are hard to come by. I called around and a lot of places told me that they discontinued pistons for the 5S or flat out said they didnt exist. Sure with money any motor can be made reliable and built well. I am sorry to make you guys mad but its just that I have seen at least 6 modified 3SGTE's in real life with my own eyes that have been running very reliable even when they had major problems and the 3S survived and the only boosted 5S I have ever seen in real life is Blakes RIPP mods supercharged Solara and when I talked to him last week he said it was running like shit and the AF ratio was so lean it was nearly off the scale on the dyno. The guy running the dyno just let off at like 4k rpm and was like screw that man this motor is f'ed up. I just hear many many horror stories about boost spiking and rods flying through the blocks of boosted 5S motors. I have seen a stock 3SGTE run for over a year with an open wastegate acctuator. The vaccum hose just clean missing and the CT26 boosting whatever teh hell it was boosting. The 3SGTE survived just fine. Try that on a 5S and see wahat happens. To me it seems simpler to drop a strong turbo motor factory engineered to be a turbo motor into a car than try and get the perfect combo of parts to work on a NA motor and hope nothing fails. Boost controller fails, engine dies. Air/ Fuel ratio off engine dies. It just seems like the 3S is easier to make power out of in stock form with less money. It all depends on who is doing the motor I guess. Once again sorry to ruffle everyones feathers.
Hey 97camryman, how did the e153 tranny swap go for you. I plan to do that too and ive located one in a junkyard thats in good condition. The guy wants $1000 and im thinkin that i can find it somewhere else cheaper. How long did the tranny swap take?
I did an S51 not an E153. The E153 would be overkill on my build so I just decided to go with the regular tranny to simplify things. I bought the tranny for $400 with 20k miles on it form a 99 Camry. I got cables and a shifter for $50 if I remember right and I got an ACT heavy duty clutch kit for $375 new axle seals were like $10 . I ordered a new clutch master and slave cylinder for $100 and got the line with it. I got new tranny to engine bolts, flywheel bolts, pressure plate bolts and a flywheel. That was about $100. There were a few misc. parts but all the major parts were around $1000. The swap started at 4pm on a Friday and I finished 3pm the next day. Its not hard at all just bolts and lots of getting things to line up with eachother. Just takes time. Good luck man its really not as hard as it sounds/seems.
I don't know many places that make cams for the 3sgte. There are a couple, but a lot are regrind/hardwelds. This proves there's just as much aftermarket cam-wise for the 5S as there is with the 3sgte.
There's also pistons/rods for the 5S, there's a header, SRI's, etc. I don't see why people think there's no aftermarket for the 5S. It's not an engine you can build from autozone parts, but it has an aftermarket. Likely more-so than the 1MZ-FE even does.
horAnother thing to add is this: Boost spiking is no more possible on a boosted 5S than it is on a 3sgte. That's not something that has to do with the engine itself, more-so what components you're using to boost (wastegate/bov/boost controller). As far as the blown camry having problems, if you're having problems with the a/f ratio, perhaps he should've done what rippmods suggested and picked up a 2bar (at least) MAP sensor. The rippmods base kit is not all-inclusive.
For the record, most hardcore builds on a toyota 4cyl include the bottom end of a 5S, not a 3s. Take that for what you may. The one thing the 3s has over the 5s is better rods. If you're boosting any na car though and expect the stock rods to hold up under high boost, you're mistaken.
The one thing the 3s has over the 5s is better rods. If you're boosting any na car though and expect the stock rods to hold up under high boost, you're mistaken.
Thats what I was thinking. If forged rods and pistons cost $1200 and then there is the labor of putting them in, wouldnt it jus be more cost effective to buy a 3S and then mod that. But yeah a 5SGTE is the real way to make power I guess. Bigger displacement and the performance GE head. Blake does have the Map sensor by the way. It turns out that his fuel pump was not getting 12 volts all the time and that was causing the lean condition. The fuel pump has to be rewired to recieve 12 volts constant or it will cause lean conditions.
yup, the fatal voltage drop. you can order rewire kits, places like horsepowerfreaks.com sell thm. he'd probably be best off to buy a new walboro pump to drop in while he does it too.
further more, you can do what I'm doing and have your crank machined to accept 3sgte rods. they're a good deal stronger than the 5S rods and identical in length. this is a cheap way to have a better rod. builds like mine (high revving NA) don't require billet rods or anything, just a rod that will handle higher rpm.
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