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Old 07-30-2007, 04:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Just a little info I'd like to pass along..

I get a LOT of calls from the great members here and recently a lot of the same questions have been asked pretty often so I thought I'd take a few minutes to post my thoughts/experiences on some of them in one place . BTW, please note that I'm not trying to discourage anyone from calling me for help because I'm always willing to help if I can and I really do answer the phone!

Quote:
disclaimer: I am not some "Audio Guru", rather just a car audio fanatic that likes to experiment and learn why things are as they are as well as pass on what I have learned! The following is based MOSTLY on my actual experience and knowledge (unless I mention it wasn't in which case I'll provide references )! In some cases it will be my opinion and my opinion may be worth exactly what you paid for it! This in NO way is meant to sound like it is the "Holy Grail" rather just to pass on some info that hopefully helps some of my fellow car audio fanatics get the most out of this hobby. In any case, "I cannot hear what you can hear and you cannot hear what I can hear so your results may vary".
Q: "I kept the factory headunit and replaced my factory speakers but the new ones don't sound much better (or in extreme cases they actually sound worse)
A: A lot of the factory headunits have built in "non defeatable processing" to compensate for the "less than stellar quality" speakers so this can happen."
They can also have "volume dependant" equalization which alters the response to keep from blowing the speakers (typically the bass will be reduced at higher volumes). A device such as the JL Cleansweep will dramatically improve the quality of sound in the situation where you want to keep your factory head unit.


Q: Are aftermarket headunits "better" than factory headunits?
A: Not necessarily. Aftermarket headunits typically will have more features however in some cases the the OEM factory specs will require tolerances that are tighter than those for some aftermarket units (this info is from a friend that is an engineer for Ford).

Q: Do I need to separate my power wire from my speaker wire and interconnects?
A: This is a myth that has been around a long time. I believe it came from cases where people ran the wires together and got induced noise. They would then separate the wires and the noise would go away so they figured it was the wires next to each other that caused the problem. This can be dispelled quite easily if you look at it this way-it takes a positive and negative connection to complete a circuit, correct? The ground wire from your vehicles battery is connected to the chassis/body correct? So if that's the case no matter where you run the speaker wire/interconnects they will always be "on top of the power wire" per se, correct? . This is not to say that there cannot be noise induced with the wires next each other rather that the problem was most likely caused by a bad cable, something electronic the wire was near or what I call a "hot spot" on the vehicle where the wire was and when said wire was moved "away from the power wire" the noise went away.
BTW, I've run all the wires together in the countless number of systems I have installed over the years and have never had a noise problem in any of them.


Q:Is sound deadening my vehicle worth it?
A:IMO yes, but it also depends on what "level" of sound quality you are looking for and what it is worth to you. Personally I am always looking to get the "most" out of my sound system so I go overboard however for some people the "point of diminishing returns" comes before the cost/time of deadening.


Q:What are the "best" speakers out there?
A: There is no "best" for everybody and every application since as I mentioned, I cannot hear what you can hear and you cannot hear what I can hear! Since speakers are what actually make the sound I ALWAYS make them the first priority in my sound system or any system I build. The best bet in finding speakers that work best for you is to listen to them yourself however I know that is not always possible so you'll have to rely on the ears of others/reviews and hope they have similar tastes to yours. And don't forget, a "good" speaker installed properly will sound better than a "great" speaker installed improperly"


Q: Should I use "rear fill"?
A: As with most things, car audio is all about "personal preference". If you like sound "all around you" or are concerned with the rear passengers use rear fill! If you are looking for "competition type" soundstage/imaging I'd say not to use rear fill as it will be more difficult to maintain a coherent front stage. An easy way to find if you like rear fill is to fade your headunit all the way to the front and if you like it like that don't spend any money on the rear! If you do prefer rear fill, the front speakers will still be doing the majority of "the work" (or should be ) so I typically suggest spending the "lions share" on the "best" speakers within your budget for the front and using a pair of mids only in the rear. Also, if you are using the rears for "ambient fill" only (and not 5.1 surround etc) you won't need much power to them. When I install systems with rear fill speaker I usually run them off of the headunit and I typically don't use tweeters as they can "pull" the sound towards the rear (but again, if that's what you like then do it!).


Q: Will I blow my speakers if I "under" power them?

A: Another one of those myths I keep seeing repeated all the time but I beleive it is just because some have not actually had this explained before. This one came from people blowing speakers while using amps that were rated less than what the speaker(s) could handle and blaming it on "under" powering. A very simple answer that dispells this myth is "if that were the case, every time you turned the volume down you would blow the speakers"! Let's say you had a speaker rated at 200 watts rms and your amp produced 100 watts rms. When an amp goes into "heavy" clipping it can "theoretically" produce twice its rated power so you could "theoretically" send 200 watts to that speaker when clipping the amp. This will NOT blow the speaker (sans a defective speaker or inaccurate rating) since the speaker is capable of handling that amount of power and it doesn't "know" if that power is from a "clipped" source. Now let's say you have a 200 watt rms speaker and a 150 watt rms amp. Under heavy clipping this amp could "theoretically" produce 300 watts which can blow a speaker rated at 200 watts rms since that is more power than the speaker is rated to handle. In these cases people would state "I blew the speaker because I was underpowering it when in fact as you can see by the example they actually overpowered it. (part of this was based on info I received from several audio engineers as well as testing I did on my own after learning about it).

Q: Amp "A" has .05% THD and amp "B" has .0005 THD. Does this mean amp "B" will "sound" better?

A: If you can hear the difference between .05 and .0005 you must be superman! Here's a little test you can take to determine just how much distortion a human is capable of hearing and you may be surprised at how much you can't hear.
http://www.klippel.de/aura/default.html

Again this is not meant to sound like the "Holy Grail" (check my disclaimer above ), I'm just passing along some experiences in hopes it will help others since I have been hearing these questions a lot lately. You may or may not agree with my "opinions" on certain things and that's cool however before disputing anything else please ask yourself "Do I have any solid proof to dispute that or am I just "repeating" something I heard/read?" If you do have solid proof please pass it along as I am always willing to learn something new myself!

Lunch time is over and I gotta get back to work but I'll check back later to field any questions/provide references or add more as I think about it.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great info! I was just wondering whether I should underpower my speakers and I've been hearing both sides of the story. Your explanation makes the most sense by far.
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Old 07-30-2007, 08:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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you will be fine as long as u dont push them into clipping and for some stupid reason dont turn them down when it clips
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Old 07-30-2007, 10:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't intend to be a picky bastard but...

Great summary. Alot of handy info in one place, well done sir.

However...

Quote:
When an amp goes into "heavy" clipping it can "theoretically" produce twice its rated power so you could "theoretically" send 200 watts to that speaker when clipping the amp. This will NOT blow the speaker (sans a defective speaker or inaccurate rating) since the speaker is capable of handling that amount of power and it doesn't "know" if that power is from a "clipped" source. Now let's say you have a 200 watt rms speaker and a 150 watt rms amp. Under heavy clipping this amp could "theoretically" produce 300 watts which can blow a speaker rated at 200 watts rms since that is more power than the speaker is rated to handle. In these cases people would state "I blew the speaker because I was underpowering it when in fact as you can see by the example they actually overpowered it. (part of this was based on info I received from several audio engineers as well as testing I did on my own after learning about it).
This is just not true. 200 watts of distorted power looks completely diferent to a speaker than 200 watts of unclipped power. 200 watts of clipped power has a large DC component and straight DC heats the voice coil MUCH MORE rapidly than a nice clean AC signal. So even tho both examples are 200 watts the clipped signal woof will exibit a significantly higher voice coil temp.

A similar metaphor would be like saying since you car can go 90 mph in fifth gear, it can do it in first also, because 90 mph is 90 mph.

Power does not kill speakers, people kill speakers. If it sounds distorted or has a different tonality as you turn it up... TURN IT DOWN! Thats why they make better (or more) speakers.
Hope this helps.
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audionut71
Great summary. Alot of handy info in one place, well done sir.

However...



This is just not true. 200 watts of distorted power looks completely diferent to a speaker than 200 watts of unclipped power. 200 watts of clipped power has a large DC component and straight DC heats the voice coil MUCH MORE rapidly than a nice clean AC signal. So even tho both examples are 200 watts the clipped signal woof will exibit a significantly higher voice coil temp.

A similar metaphor would be like saying since you car can go 90 mph in fifth gear, it can do it in first also, because 90 mph is 90 mph.

Power does not kill speakers, people kill speakers. If it sounds distorted or has a different tonality as you turn it up... TURN IT DOWN! Thats why they make better (or more) speakers.
Hope this helps.
Thank you and yes it is technically true that "people kill speakers" since we ultimately have control over the volume knob however....... excessive power in the hands of these people whether "clean" or "distorted" is what causes speaker deaths and as promised I will provide a reference that can explain better than I ever could (theres a bit of discussion about DC current and killing tweeters as well ).

Below is part of a thread posted by Manville Smith of JL Audio and also a link to the entire thread with posts by several world class electrical engineers (RobM and werewolf on this thread to name a couple) as well as several other car audio professionals. Hope this helps and if needed I can also provide several other tech articles/actual tests on the subject (not theories) or you could test this yourself as we did on several speakers using a fully clipped signal.

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csfor...clipping+blown


Quote:
Originally posted by msmith:
The only thing that thermally damages speakers is power... more specifically: average power over time.

I'll explain...

If you take a given amplifier, let's say 100 watts and operate it just below clipping with music material, the "Crest Factor" of the amplifier's output is equivalent to the "Crest Factor" of the program material.

"Crest Factor" is the difference between the average level of the signal and its peak level. For example, a pure sine wave has a "crest factor" of 3dB, meaning that it's peak level is 3dB higher than its average level. We all know that 3dB represents a power factor of 2, so another way to look at it is that the peak power of the signal is twice that of its average level. So, if we play a sine wave on our 100 watt amplifier, just below its clipping level, the average power (over time) the speaker is needing to dissipate is 50 watts.

A true square wave, by comparison, has a crest factor of 0db, so it has equal average and peak power. Our 100 watt amplifier, playing a square wave, unclipped, into our speaker requires that the speaker dissipates 100 watts of power (twice the heat as a sine wave).

Music has a significantly higher crest factor than sine waves or square waves. A highly dynamic recording (Sheffield Lab, Chesky, etc.) typically has a crest factor of 20dB or more, meaning that its average power is 100 times lower than its peak power. So, if we play our 100 watt amplifier just below clipping with the typical audiophile recording our speaker is only needing to dissipate 1 watt of average power over time.

Modern commercial recordings typically exhibit crest factors of around 10dB, meaning that the average power is 10 times lower than the peak power. So, our 100 watt amp just below clipping would deliver an average power over time of 10 watts that the speaker has to dissipate.

Okay, so what happens when we clip the amplifier (which we all do at times). When the amplifier enters into clipping, the peak power no longer increases, but here's the KEY... THE AVERAGE POWER CONTINUES TO INCREASE. We can often tolerate a fair amount of clipping... as much as 10 dB or more above clipping with a reasonably dynamic recording... a bit less with a compressed commercial recording.

So, if we turn the volume up 10dB higher than the clipping level with our Sheffield Lab recording, we have now reduced the crest factor of the signal reaching the speakers by 10dB... so instead of needing to dissipate 1 watt average, we are asking the speaker to dissipate 10 watts average, and we're probably ok.

If we turn up the volume 6dB past clipping on a compressed commercial recording (or bass music recording), we have taken the crest factor of the signal from a starting point of 10dB to only 4dB, asking the speaker to dissipate an average power of 40 watts instead of 10 watts... that's FOUR TIMES the average power, which generates four times the heat.

SO, in most cases, the reason clipping can damage a speaker really has nothing to do with anything other than an increase in average power over time. It's really not the shape of the wave or distortion... it's simply more power over time.

When someone plays Bass Mekanik clean (unclipped) on a 1000 watt amplifier the average power is 100 watts (10dB crest factor). You can also make 100 watts average with Bass Mekanik by heavily clipping a 200 watt amplifier.

If someone is blowing a woofer with 200 watts of power due to a lack of restraint with the volume control... they will blow it even faster with a 1000 watt amplifier because they will probably turn it up even more and now they have more power to play with... this is the recipe for aroma of voice coil.

When woofers are rated for power, an unclipped signal is assumed. We use test signal with a crest factor of 6dB for power testing and can run a speaker at its rated power for hours and hours on end without thermal or mechanical failure. For example, a W1v2 can dissipate 150 watts average power for eight hours or more with signal peaks of 600 watts. So, we rate the speaker for 150W continuous power. This way, when a customer needs to choose an amp for it, they will hopefully choose one that can make about 150 W clean power... Even if they clip the bejeezus out of that amplifier, it is unlikely that the speaker will fail thermally. This is a conservative method, but it needs to account for the high cabin temperatures in a car (think Arizona in the summer) which significantly impacts heat dissipation in the speaker. A top plate that starts at 150 degrees F is not as effective at removing heat as one that starts at 72 degrees F in the lab... and this affects the ramp up of heat in the coil.

DISCLAIMER: The frequency components of clipping can affect tweeters due to their low inductance and lack of low-pass filtering. Clipping essentially raises the average power of high frequencies to a point that can damage tweeters... Woofers and midranges couldn't care less about these high frequency components because their filtering and/or inherent inductance knocks that stuff out of the picture.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Here's a little more info I found:
Quote:
taken from www.caraudioforum.com

clipping is not the key to anything-----speakers don't know the difference between a unclipped or clipped waveform----the only thing that they respond to is power----and power is converted to either movement or heat and the spape of the waveform means nothing----it looks like you believe the same misconception as the rest of the world-----so what is the solution to keep that 600 watt sub from blowing??? i hope you don't believe that a 600 watt amp would have saved that 600 watt sub----- cause when the customer clips that 600 watt amp the sub will get 1200 watts and it will blow even faster..........RC

Richard Clark, Technical Editor Carsound Magazine

Hi all,
Power is power. The speaker doesn't know if it's clipped, clean, or what. It knows there is power. And power is what kills speakers.

One thing to correct - a clipped signal does NOT create DC; this is an oft-repeated myth that should be eliminated. When you clip a signal, you actually INCREASE the HIGH frequency content! DC would be the opposite - removal of high frequency signal content.

In fact, the ultimate clipped signal would be strikingly similar to a square wave. A square wave is nothing more than a set of harmonically related sine waves - there is no DC component present. It is all AC.

This is, in fact, why clipped amps are literally murder on tweeters. Clipped signals contain much more high frequency energy than unclipped signals. This is readily passed by the high pass filter of the tweeter, and means the tweeter can receive 2-10X as much power as anticipated, and quickly blows out.

Anyway, too much power - clipped or unclipped - is what kills speakers. You can toast an speaker with clean or clipped signals. Just give it too much power.

To answer the original question, you can push the driver to its full limits with that amp, so I'd recommend running the gains down a bit, and if you hear nasty bumps/distortion from the sub, turn it down even more.

Note that you won't get more SPL from ANY driver once you're at its limits, regardless of how much more power you pour on. The nice thing about larger boxes is that you need less power to reach the limits. Would you rather hit full output with 100W or 1000W? Personally, I'll take the 100W, since it's less thermal strain on the driver and amp, and less draw on the alternator.

Once you're at the limit, you're there. More power won't help.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio



Dan Wiggins, CEO Adire Audio

suggest that everyone download and read the following paper, from the excellent Rane website.... this is as close to the truth on the "power or distortion blows speakers" discussion as you will get...

http://www.rane.com/pdf/note128.pdf

Regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


Manville Smith, JL Audio

Wow. Doesn't anyone here recall that the recommended gain structure for 99% of all car audio system calls for a 3:1 voltage overload at the amp - speaker? This means that if the amp clips at 2 volts, we recommend feeding it 6 volts at the wide open, full pop level. Not only do we recommend "clipping" the amp, we recommend that it be super clipped.
Clipping doesn't damage speakers. A speaker is just a piece of paper driven by a coil of wire suspended in a permanent magnet. How could a speaker ever know the difference between a clipped signal and an unclipped signal? It's just a speaker.



David Navone. Carsound Magazine
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Old 07-31-2007, 03:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Wow... good stuff.

Manville said it best:
Quote:
SO, in most cases, the reason clipping can damage a speaker really has nothing to do with anything other than an increase in average power over time. It's really not the shape of the wave or distortion... it's simply more power over time.

When someone plays Bass Mekanik clean (unclipped) on a 1000 watt amplifier the average power is 100 watts (10dB crest factor). You can also make 100 watts average with Bass Mekanik by heavily clipping a 200 watt amplifier.

If someone is blowing a woofer with 200 watts of power due to a lack of restraint with the volume control... they will blow it even faster with a 1000 watt amplifier because they will probably turn it up even more and now they have more power to play with... this is the recipe for aroma of voice coil.
I too ran many tests in school on the effect of clipping (more power under the curve over time) I am just trying to help people understand that
its not only big amps that kill, its the dumbass running the amp. Sorry I made it sound like the DC component was the problem, its not the DC but the fact that you just upped the crest factor and are tranferring so much more power at that point.
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Old 08-02-2007, 02:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Here's another one I get asked frequently:

Q: Why do the same speakers sound "better" when the salesman switches to certain headunits or amps on the soundboard?
A: Have you ever heard the salesman say "this amp is better for bass" or "if you like brighter highs you need this particular headunit" or "this one is better for vocals" etc etc? I have and used to wonder about it until we did some experimenting using numerous mid level/high end headunits/amps at one of my car audio meets some time ago. The major finding was that MANY headunits/amps had "built in processing" even when the EQ was set on flat! The headunits usually had certain frequencies boosted or cut which emphasized or de-emphasized a certain part of the music and some of the amps had similar processing going on (check out the review of the new Rockford amps in Car Audio and Electronics this month and you'll see what I'm talking about). Also, most people equate "increased output" with "increased SQ" so an amp/headunit adjusted to put out a bit more power could easily be perceived as "sounding better". I think it would be extremely difficult to keep all of the headunits and amps on a sound board the same in output/frequency response and even if they could I can't imagine it would be beneficial for the salesperson since then they couldn't say stuff like "this amp/headunit sounds better than that one which is why it costs more" etc (as an electrical engineer friend of mine always says, "if it measures the same it will sound the same".) BTW, there were several other "variances" in the amps/headunits however one thing we noticed with the "higher end" units we tested was that the channels were more evenly matched and most did not have "EQ curves" built in.

Last edited by Mr Marv; 08-02-2007 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 08-04-2007, 08:31 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks Marv...great info BTW, I posted your link in the other forum. If you what I mean.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Another one that has been asked several times lately:

Q: Can I use my steering wheel controls with a device such as the JL Cleansweep?

A: You can still use the cd/tuner controls however you must use an external volume knob because the headunit volume knob is set at a specific position when you run the software that "flattens" the response of the factory headunit and if you change this position at the headunit you can induce the "factory equalization" thereby negating the benefit of flattening the response.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Very good info. Thanks.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info. It is easier to see the distortion than it is to hear it.
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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A few more I have been asked several times recently:

Q: If my amp already has a fuse do I still need a fuse on the power wire near the battery?
A: Yes!!! The fuse on the amp protects the amp. The fuse at the battery protects the wire. General guidelines state you should put the fuse within a foot or so of the battery and in any case it must go before the wire passes through ANY metal (make sure to use a rubber/plastic grommet at that point).

Q: How do I know what size wire and fuse I need?
A:The power wire size is determined by the capacity needed for any equipment connected to it and length of the wire. The fuse size is determined by the capacity of the wire over that length. It is OK to use a fuse smaller than required for the capacity of the wire but it is NEVER OK to use a fuse larger than the capacity of the wire. On the other side, it is OK to use a wire size larger than needed but it is NOT OK to use a wire smaller than required for the determined capacity (as soon as I have a few more minutes I'll post a link to a wire size calculator or if someone else has one please post it)

Q: How long can my ground wire be?
A: The length/size of the ground wire is determined by the capacity of said wire. As long as the ground wire has at least the same capacity as the positive wire you can run it all the way back to the battery if you want (that's how we do it in boats and other situations where you cannot get a good ground elsewhere ). BTW, this of course is assuming you already have a properly sized positive wire to start with

Almost forgot, I actually prefer a circuit breaker instead of fuses
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Very very very nice collection of info marv. STICKY!!

A note on circuit breakers.

I read somewhere that they "react" slower than a fuse and theres still a chance of your electronics frying before the breaker trips.

Ill see if I can find the link.
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curry View Post
Very very very nice collection of info marv. STICKY!!

A note on circuit breakers.

I read somewhere that they "react" slower than a fuse and theres still a chance of your electronics frying before the breaker trips.

Ill see if I can find the link.
Thanks Curry

I have not heard that before but since the circuit breaker is only protecting the power wire I can't figure why that would be the case (any equipment connected to that wire should be individually fused). I have however seen a glass fuse blow and then "fuse" itself back together causing the shorted wire to melt so fast it wasn't funny (luckily the battery terminal was removed before it started a fire! )
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