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Possible massive oil leak with trailer tow pkg oil cooler (TSB)

139K views 254 replies 54 participants last post by  BobCT 
#1 ·
The 2007 & 2008 Siennas with trailer tow package have oil coolers. The line to the oil cooler is made out of the same crappy rubber hose as the vvt-i oil line that affects ALL 2gr-fe V6 engines built prior to April 2008 for which the LSC-90K recall was issued after Toyota was presented with millions of dollars of bills for failed engines that ran out of oil when the oil line burst.

There is a tsb on it .... try ref 338045 ....... which explains it but not really an official looking document.

Anyway ....... what's happening post warranty on these Siennas is rapid complete loss of engine oil resulting in complete engine failure.

I am just putting this out as something to watch for. Maybe the Highlander always had the metal line which is now currently in use. This issue does not apply to Avalon or Camry ...... no oil coolers.

Would someone like sweeneyp?? care to check if 08 & 09 Highlanders with tow pkg are at risk for this.

My "ex" has a 2011 AWD Highlander with tow pkg. I am having her check hers out.

Ref:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/274-2nd-generation-2004-2010/478377-oil-cooler-leak.html
 
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#3 · (Edited)
#4 · (Edited)
Ok, after looking, there is a TSB out specifically for the HL. It appears 2012+ HL got a new part. I don't know if its a new metal line or an improved rubber line. (Maybe a 2012 owner would be willing to check?) I'll try to figure out what the new part is. In the mean time here is the TSB:




I'm getting really tired really quick of these external engine rubber oil hoses...

And just to rant (because I can :D), the warranty its covered under is a joke. 36/k 3 year warranty only, they release the TSB in 2011...well they just basically screw the 08 owners....[/rant]
 
#6 · (Edited)
Ok, after looking, there is a TSB out specifically for the HL. It appears 2012+ HL got a new part. I don't know if its a new metal line or an improved rubber line. (Maybe a 2012 owner would be willing to check?) I'll try to figure out what the new part is. In the mean time here is the TSB:




I'm getting really tired really quick of these external engine rubber oil hoses...

And just to rant (because I can :D), the warranty its covered under is a joke. 36/k 3 year warranty only, they release the TSB in 2011...well they just basically screw the 08 owners....[/rant]
And even more bizaree ............ HOW COULD THIS NOT BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE POWERTRAIN - 5 yr 60K miles.

It sure isn't part of the electrical system, suspension, brakes, audio, yada yada !!!!!!!!!

And calling the attendant leak that throws all eninge oil out in 5 minutes a 'SEEP" ....... it's a freakin GUSHER,
 
#5 · (Edited)
And, last post I promise :lol:

You can see the lines through the oil filter opening in the splash guard. I know in that sienna link, somebody said they thought it was the same hose as the VVT-I one, well, its not. This hose is much larger in diameter and would flow a serious amount of oil in a hurry. If this one failed, it would drain the oil before you would notice the issue. Now, having said that, it looks like its the same design as the new post recall hose on the VVT-I line (the one with the braiding inside the rubber hose), just larger. I tried to look up the specifications of the hose, but I couldn't. The only markings I saw was a sysmbol that looked like "Ri" followed by ">ACM< 7606". Unfortunately I couldn't find anything.



On a random note, I didn't notice that bolt there until I was looking at the picture on my computer. :facepalm: :lol: It came from the the horn bracket on the radiator, no idea how it ended up there....



Anybody recognize the brand?
 
#12 ·
stupid questions...

1) if this oil line is hidden behind a splash guard and not visible unless you crawl under the vehicle, remove the splash guard and inspect, how would the owner ever know that the line was seeping a little bit? Wouldn't it just drip onto the splash guard? It would probably do this for a very, very long time before enough oil would accumulate, if ever, to give fair warning.

2) Of the many, many Highlander owners, there are only a very small percentage of people who frequent this forum, and neither Toyota nor your dealer is going to notify you of this...so we are the few lucky ones that know about this potential ticking time bomb that could lead to total engine failure with no warning.

Isn't this really the type of latent defect that an automaker should have an affirmative duty to disclose to the owner, because the symptoms are not obvious, the potential damage is huge and they are not voluntarily notfying anyone...

I might have this repair done for around $130 or so, out of pocket, just for peace of mind....
 
#13 · (Edited)
1) if this oil line is hidden behind a splash guard and not visible unless you crawl under the vehicle, remove the splash guard and inspect, how would the owner ever know that the line was seeping a little bit? Wouldn't it just drip onto the splash guard? It would probably do this for a very, very long time before enough oil would accumulate, if ever, to give fair warning.
Yes, its covered, there are thick plastic splash guard covering the lower portion of the car. I took the picture from the oil filter access hole. Its normally covered as well, but some toyota dealership decided to keep mine one day when they changed the oil :)gaah:), so its missing on mine. You might notice oil on the cover when you drop it to change oil, but air will flow through that area, and it might blow whatever oil is there away.

2) Of the many, many Highlander owners, there are only a very small percentage of people who frequent this forum, and neither Toyota nor your dealer is going to notify you of this...so we are the few lucky ones that know about this potential ticking time bomb that could lead to total engine failure with no warning.
Yep, oh I love that phrase, ticking time bomb, as that exactly what this is. The sienna owner that Paul3637 referred to had 180k'ish miles, and had routinely change oil. It just randomly failed. I'm kinda with JMSinMD on this, they need to notify owners of TSB's like they do recalls. Not all because there are a ton of misc/non important ones, but major ones that can lead to power-train failure/massively expensive repairs.

I might have this repair done for around $130 or so, out of pocket, just for peace of mind....
I'm leaning towards that as well. That's why I replaced the VVT-I hose, even after the recall. Its ~$85-90 in parts + oil (do it at a change and your not losing money), and I'm willing to pay that to not worry. Especially when I plan to keep the HL for many more years. You would have to drain the oil to do this, so I'm planning on adding this to my list of things I'm going to do at 100k in a few months. I may do it early at 95k in about 500 miles, if I do, I'll post up a DIY. I'm waiting to get a response back from Toyota on the difference between the original and new part (and I seriously doubt I'll get anything back worthwhile)

On that note, any 2012 or 2013 owners who change their oil (or willing to pop that panel off), could one of you take a picture of the new part since yall have them stock? If its a rubber hose, I might be able to look up the ratings or spot the changes they did. Thanks :thanks:

Fingers crossed its an all metal line (which I highly doubt based off diagrams) :crossfingers:
 
#15 ·
Got good news, got a chance to take a look at a 2013 Lexus RX350, so I didn't miss the opertunity to see what kind of line it has (since it uses the same 2GR-FE, and it has the newer version of the pipe). And after looking online the lexus part number matches the toyota part number. I can't be sure its the exact same, but at least its very likely. BUT.....


They used an all metal line! No more rubber hose BS, so this is very good news.



also, do RX350's come with an engine under all this plastic?

I mean really...whats the point of that monstrosity of plastic
 
#17 ·
NHSTA Complaint filed

Albeit on a Sienna, here is a link to:
Date Complaint Filed: 03/11/2013
Component(s): ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Date of Incident: 02/11/2013
NHTSA ID Number: 10502969

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/...8wd!1294064258

Nice job sweeneyp on the Lexus photos of the all metal line ...... and wow ..... as for that monstrosity of plastic ..... well, retains more heat to ensure shorter battery life in hot weather .... also discourages DIY air filter replacements ..... and appears to block easy/simple DIY checks of brake & power steering fluid.
 
#22 ·
It looks like based on the various threads that my 2009 is not affected by the upper line as it has been replaced with an all metal line but the lower line might be.

BTW I contacted the lead attorney that has been handling the recent Toyota class action lawsuits and directed him to this thread as well as the Lexus thread.

These issues clearly demonstrate a product liability issue, both with a defective design/defective product and Toyota's failure to warn (of possible injury and death.)

This would be an easier case to win than any of the other recent lawsuits.
 
#23 ·
yeah, I guess exploding was too strong.

Took my car in this morning and was denied on both requests for relief.

First, wanted my dealer to look at transmission whine, showed them the RAV4 TSB, he said, forget about it, its not even the same vehicle.

Isn't it the same transmission? Why is there a TSB on the RAV4 but no TSB for Highlander, which has exact same engine and 5 speed transmission?

My transmission whine falls EXACTLY in line with the description in the TSB, starts at about 38mph and is very noticeable...

Also, showed him the rubber oil cooler line TSB, he said, no seepage = no repair. So I asked him, does Toyota want to wait until these start failing left and right like the VVT-i lines (presumably same issue, rubber hose being exposed to hot oil under pressure)...??

Its absurd that I have a $36k Limited, with 33,000 miles and the achilles heel of the engine is an $85 defectively designed/spec'd part, which if it fails, could wreck the engine...without warning, and there is nothing I can do about it.

Toyota obviously knew there is a serious potential problem, hence the reason they replaced the line.

Sweenyp, can't wait to see photos of the replacement part, you are surely getting the metal line? I may just DIY this, too big of a risk to take.

I pushed back a bit on my dealer, and he said he'd call Toyota and see if they would cover the repair....jeez....

This is powertrain....and couldn't possibly due to a lack of maintenance, user error, etc etc.

And trust me, I understand, its not seeping oil....I'm not looking for problems or free repairs, but this is one of those things that ought to be replaced, regardless of whether its leaking oil....because I have no easy way of checking on it myself...

Am I supposed to ask dealer to check if the line is about to burst, every time I take it in, before they'll repair?
 
#26 ·
Another NHSTA complaint june 2012, 75K miles

Lexus RX350 - same issue yada yada

http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2007/Lexus/RX+350/10462402


Driving home from work late at night my car started to make sounds it smelled like rubber burning. My display panel showed no trouble lights were on. I knew I had just had the oil changed the oil light was not on. I am a 61 year old woman on a dark back road with no lights or cars around me I was not stopping. After driving 10 miles finally I was a block from home now the oil light comes on. My husband checked the oil and saw that the oil stick was dry. I called where I had my oil changed and explained and they said to have the car towed to them. Once they checked it out he called and said my oil cooler hose blew apart he said they see this alot in 2007 lexus rx 350 and I should call my dealer. I called the lexus service dealer the service guy said it was under warranty. I asked if my motor was ruined will lexus fix it he said yes toyota would have to eat the cost. I had the car towed to lexus I got a call from the lexus service dept he said it was not under warranty. He said I would have to pay almost 600.00 to have a new hose installed. I went off on him. My car has 75000.00 miles I have owned cars with 115+ miles and never had a oil hose go bad. The scary thing is there is no warning when this hose blows. The dash board panel lights should indicate there is a problem service is needed something! for the hose to blow apart in just a second like it did the hose has a default. Toyota has known about this problem and refuses to do a recall at this time. We need to have a class action law suit. This is so dangerous why is toyota not taking care of this problem they wait until deaths occur
 
#27 ·
Toyota has known about this problem and refuses to do a recall at this time. We need to have a class action law suit. This is so dangerous why is toyota not taking care of this problem they wait until deaths occur[/I]
At a minimum this should be treated as a service campaign, I.e. recall vs. a TSB. In the meantime I will pay out of pocket as my wife's safety is worth that much, but guarantee that to many businesses and CEO's of fortune 500 size companies I've dealt with, I pride myself on being the squeaky wheel and knowing exactly what organizations to contact to stoke the fire under companies tails.

For example if I happened to not find a lawyer that was interested in a class action lawsuit against them, I would start contacting the appropriate governmental agencies as well as contacting the national media outlets who would sink their teeth into such a clear example of Toyota's negligence and laibility.
 
#28 ·
As this discussion is pretty scattered between different boards and we have two different hoses in question (small VVTi & larger Oil Cooler), I'll pick up the discussion here as well.

First observation is that both 'original' hoses have similar markings. "Ri" which I'll assume is a trademark mfg ID given the style of font, and ACM which is an ASTM/ASM materials mark.

I did a materials search thru ASTM and a few other sources, and found out that ACM = Polyacrylate, with the name derived from ACrylic Monomer. It is a 'rubber' polymer compound with decent high temperature and oil resistance, but with some sensitivity to acidic environments - hence the 'crankcase corrosive gas degradation' mentioned in the VVTi TSB. So maybe one question is how acidic is your engine oil? I wonder if there is a correlation between oil change interval, short trips that don't fully heat the oil, etc. But net is there are better choices for an oil line.

The new VVTi hoses are marked ACM FKM. FKM is a fluorinated rubber, more commonly know as Viton. It's claim to fame is it's extreme nasty chemical resistance, and all of our lab equipment that carry corrosive materials use Viton seals. Problem is it's expensive stuff and there are physical wear issues. If you have ever held a Viton O-ring, they are pretty pliable and easily damaged - so alone it wouldn't make a very suitable hose. But, add that acid resistance character as an inner liner to an ACM rubber (or especially a higher temperature rated derivative called HT-ACM) along with a fiber reinforced weave, and you've got what should be a bulletproof oil hose.

So, I did a USPTO (patent office) search on FKM + ACM + Oil, and guess what I found!

"A heat-resistant hose for transport of high temperature fluid, wherein the inner surface of the hose in contact with said fluid comprises a material containing blended rubber of fluorinated rubber (FKM) and acrylic rubber (ACM). In particular, a heat-resistant hose for transport of fluid containing high temperature oil which comprises an inner tubular body composed of one or more layers at least the most inner layer of which consists of blended rubber of FKM and ACM, fiber reinforcements wound around the outer surface of said inner tubular body the thread extracting force of which the fiber reinforcements is not less than........."

So we now know that the replacement VVTi hoses are probably made of the right stuff. And if your dealer actually does their job and changes it, you might be OK. How about the Oil Cooler hose? Does anybody have a picture of the replacement product?
 
#31 ·
How about the Oil Cooler hose? Does anybody have a picture of the replacement product?
I do now. It came in early, got it earlier today. The plates the lines attach to are solid hunks of metal (seem like overkill to me :lol:, it looks like this line is made of aluminum which would explain the cost)

And great news, its all metal :D It matches the Lexus RX350's perfectly, so I was right about the part numbers matching between Lexus and Toyota

I'll install it sometime this week when I get to 95k miles (when I do my oil change)




What about replacing the rubber hoses as a short term fix? I crawled under my 2011 and it isn't leaking but I like the idea of doing something now and it looks like an easy job to replace just the rubber lines.
Well it might be easy to replace just the hose portion, I would just do the full replacement. Why chance it :dunno:

When I'm done with what I'm working on, they might start caring.
So I take it the lawyer responded?
 
#29 ·
What about replacing the rubber hoses as a short term fix? I crawled under my 2011 and it isn't leaking but I like the idea of doing something now and it looks like an easy job to replace just the rubber lines.

Thanks for all the great info on this problem and many other issues. Too bad Toyota cares less than the nation.
 
#36 ·
Fibber2--out of the ballpark post on VVTi hose composition! Great research, clearly presented. Refreshing!:thumbsup:
Oh, I see how it is. Apparently our normal posts around here aren't good enough for AV's lofty requirements :disappoin





just messin :lol:

Anyone know if the 2012-2013 HI V6 oil cooler hose is rubber or metal?
Should be the part I just got, which is metal. But its easy to check :thumbsup:

Besides, I just got a hydraulic scissor lift so now I need to use it to justify the purchase (the Highlander is the wife's and she was none too excited about the lift :D )
Like a car scissor jack or a platform scissor lift? I've never seen a hydraulic car one before. If that's the case that's awesome :lol:
 
#34 ·
Diy

Sweenyp,
Looking forward to the DIY write-up. We are just a little over 25,000 miles, but if the replacement isn't too difficult, I plan to tackle it at the next oil change. Besides, I just got a hydraulic scissor lift so now I need to use it to justify the purchase (the Highlander is the wife's and she was none too excited about the lift :D )
 
#35 ·
AVConsult: Thanks Sir! There is still some value in being an engineer.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I've haven't been called "lofty" before. Much classier than what usually gets tossed over the fence.

There is some truth in the sentiment, you've got to admit, SP. Across the vastness of the WWW, in most forums it's one half-wit advising another, framed in Three Stooges banter. I admit the latter can be hootin' fun sometimes. The sheer number of posters who can't [or can't be bothered to] stitch together a sentence with nouns, verbs, punctuation and some composition (learned how to tell a story) is breath taking.

*That said*, the HL forums are surprisingly well populated. I mean that. My guess it's the demographic of those who buy an HL versus say a Civic.

I am disappointed that one can't give an exceptional shout out to a fellow member without there being a dust-up of pettiness. :D
 
#42 ·
I've haven't been called "lofty" before.
Just so its clear, I was joking/being VERY sarcastic.

I am disappointed that one can't give an exceptional shout out to a fellow member without there being a dust-up of pettiness. :D
:lol:

Like this one




Now I don't have to lose weight to get under the cars! :lol:
That can hold up the weight of the HL!?!?! I definitely want one now :D

I was all proud of myself about a month ago, finally got a floor jack (had been using the stupid OEM scissor jack this whole time), but now...forget the floor jack, I want that :D

SI'll quietly go back to the Sienna side of TN..... (slinks away....)
:lol:

My writing is far from perfect,
Your not the only one. :facepalm: Unfortunately after using instant message programs and texting, I tend to take shortcuts a lot now.
 
#41 ·
Just lucky




I have a VERY understanding wife. 28 years together. I went in to meet with our accountant to do our taxes. He is a car guy ( American muscle cars) and is about to retire. Wants to move and mentioned that he had this lift for sale. Very reasonably priced. So we go over to his house to see the lift and I start to think about all of the money I can save by doing things myself, like changing the oil lines. So this is really a money-saving investment. Rationalization at its finest. My wife knows better, of course, but like I said, she is very understanding. Of course, she did get the new Highlander. You don't stay together 28 years without learning to compromise along the way.
 
#40 ·
Sorry guys! Didn't mean to incite a range war or anything like that over here. I'll quietly go back to the Sienna side of TN..... (slinks away....)

One parting thought. My company occasionally sends me out as an ambassador to the local schools to spread the gospel of an Engineering career to prospective students. One of the things I stress, and it surprises many, is that I value writing and communication skills right up there with math & science. Why? Because I've witnessed too many talented individuals crash & burn because they couldn't sell an idea to upper management, write a literate report, submit a patent disclosure, draft a journal article, etc. Somehow, our schools are really failing us.

My writing is far from perfect, but I do put some effort into the research and the presentation. It's nice someone noticed.

I'll get off my soapbox now!!!
 
#43 ·
Fibber2....OH PLEASE STAY!!! We'll take fibbers, pathological liars, even DEMOCRATS if they are technically savvy and can write!

We're WAY more fun than a bunch of whipped 30-somethings in a mini-van forum (me 20 years a go)!:eek:
 
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