Toyota JBL System Specs

[sweeneyp]

Well I've been installing Rattletrap by Fatmat (anti-vibration material, similar to dynamat) in all my doors and tailgate (another story in itself) and decided to finally get a bead on the system specs for the JBL system using my multimeter. I've been thinking about replacing the stock speakers but not knowing power and resistance made me hesitant. I snapped some pics of the 6x9's and 6.5" to let yall see the condition that they are in. By that I mean magnets size, cones materials, and surrounds materials. So here we go:
(AC Voltage and AC Amperage were taken to find the power and impedance (resistance) for the speakers)


Dash-Board 2.5" Speakers:
Speaker Specs:
--Resistance: 2 ohms
--Average Power from amp over a 1100hz range: 11.87 Watts
--Max Power from amp achieved at any hertz: 12.5 Watts at 600hz and 533hz
--Amp is outputting roughly 12 watts RMS at 2 ohms to these speakers.
Crossover Characteristics
--These speakers play down to about 250hz before cutting out and go up to 15khz+
--The crossover with the 6x9's start at 550hz. (6x9's start playing at 500hz, while the 2.5" pick up around 250hz. Both play between 250-550hz)

Front Door 6x9's Speakers
Speaker Specs:
--Resistance: 2 ohms
--Average Power from amp over a 500hz range: 26.75 Watts
--Max Power from amp achieved at any hertz: 30.81 Watts at 158.7hz
--Amp is outputting roughly 25 watts RMS at 2 ohm to these speakers
Crossover Characteristics
--Like above, 6x9's play from 20hz-550'ish hz while the 2.5 play 250hz - 15khz+.
--Both play between 250hz-550hz

Rear Door 6.5" Speakers
Speaker Specs
--Resistance: 4 ohms
--Average Power from amp over a 500hz range: 21.27 Watts
--Max Power from amp achieved at any hertz: 24.32 Watts at 267hz
--Amp is outputting roughly 21 watts RMS at 4 ohms to these speakers
Crossover Characteristics
--None, these are full range speakers, they get 20hz-20khz.

Tailgate 8" DVC Sub
Speaker Specs
--According to Toyota documents this sub is powered by 2 channels. Each one operates at 2 ohms
--Amp supplies a total of 110 watts (according to JBL's website) to both channels so 55 watts RMS at 2 ohms per channel
--I coudn't test this speaker as i have blown mine (pretty sure) during some "testing " in the past

Pics
2.5" Dashboard Speakers
(I "borrowed" () these from Bingo883 Tweeter install post as I forgot to take pictures of the 2.5" ones)

Ignore the crossover soldered to the terminals in the picture below, its normally not there.

6x9's


The magnets are fairly small on this 6x9, but AVConsult has suggested they are possibly made Neodymium instead of the usual ferrite. Being more efficient it would allow for a smaller magnet. These are paper coned with foam surrounds, not extremely durable. There is rust already on the back of the speaker where the terminals and wires are. The speaker itself is screwed into an adapter plate that mounts to the door. This adapter plate accepts any aftermarket 6x9 with standard mounting holes. I tested this with my Pioneer ts-d6902r's, they fit right up. BUT they must be no deeper than 3" if larger, they contact the window when lowered. I had to space my 3.5" speakers 1/2" to clear the window.

6.5's




Now that magnet is a little more appropriate in size being its most likely constructed of ferrite. Plus the surround on these are a little more robust it appears than on the 6x9's. The cones are again made of paper, but the tweeters are a metal dome type. Like on the 6x9's I had rust on the back back of the speaker on the terminals. The screws that attach the speakers to the adapter plate are exactly 6.5" apart. A 6.75" speaker will drop right into the adapter plate. I tested it with my Pioneer TS-D1702R speakers.

EXTRA
As previously mentioned, I already noticed rust on some of the terminals on the back of the speakers that would be inside the doors panels. Just something to keep a look out for.

Also if you do the tweeter in the A-pillar modification (in the sticky section) watch out, you are lowering the load the amp sees to 1.3 ohms. That is a really low ohm rating for the amp and could damage it. Most amps don't like to go below 2 ohms. Again just something to keep a look out for.

Toyota calls this system a system sustainable of 440 watts, well that is not exactly true. 440 watts is more like the peak power of the system as the added RMS of all the speakers + sub put it somewhere in the 220-230 watt range.

It appears that this system has the power of an aftermarket headunit's built in amplifier + a sub. It is basically a 4 channel amp that puts out 20 watts at 4 ohms plus 2 channels for a subwoofer with added power. The 2 front channels are given a 2 ohm load and split so it can deliver about 35-40 watts at 2 ohms, but it is still around 20 watts at 4 ohms. Its kinda of ridiculous to pay the high price for the JBL system and you basically get this low power system.

I'll post a link to the excel file I created when taking all the data down (voltage and amps at specific frequencies, then the power and impedance at those frequencies) I used to find the power. It also contains the model #'s of the speakers. In other words, it goes into FAR more detail than this post
File: http://www.mediafire.com/?d5d8wwv5ht6571z

Hope this helps anyone looking to do modifications to the JBL system without running new amps.

[bschurr]

Great research & thanks for documenting this

I am no audiophile but I remain completely underwhelmed by the JBL system.

[sweeneyp]

thanks!
I'm was shocked at the whole lack of tweeters in the front. The tweeters in the rear doors are far from being good (in my opinion). You know a system is lackin in high frequency when my 6x9's (I have mounted in the trunk) tweeters fill the whole car with high frequency (even though they are facing the roof). I wish now I had saved the money on the JBL and put it toward an aftermarket system I could put in (including aftermarket nav)

update:
I was in a huge rush when I wrote this and didn't get the whole post down before I had to leave so I just added the final section I meant to before, the replacement suggestion section.

[AVConsult]

Since this is my area of expertise...

The magnet size on what appears to be the 6x9 may be because is it Neodymium, not ferrite. JBL makes a lot of Neo magnet drivers in the entire speaker line, including pro gear. Neo makes for a very efficient coil motor, lighter in weight, more compact, but more $$ than ferrite. JBL uses them where space or weight are an issue.

A speaker's DC resistance is not its AC impedance--the important spec. A regular DVM can't measure impedance properly, as the metric is frequency dependant and you have to simultaneously measure current and voltage. The speaker impedance may fall to half the DC resistance at some frequencies (typically near resonance) and gradually climb to 5 to 10 times the DC resistance at higher frequencies. In this case, the impedance probably averages out to between 1.6 and 3 ohms.

Low impedance speakers are chosen purely for the fact that for a simple bridging amplifier voltage swing (about 14.4v x 2, or 10V RMS), lowering the driver impedance yields higher power delivery and higher SPL. In this case, 50W max for a 2 ohm avg impedance speaker. The tweets are intentionally power limited as they are more efficient than the LF speakers and can handle less power.

If the sub is working with buzzes or rattles, then it's fine.

Your AC measurement may be fine for steady state purposes, especially using tones and a true RMS meter. However, unless you were measuring RMS current at the same time, using the DC resistance to calculate with is incorrect. You would have to know the impedance of the speaker at the tone frequency to properly calculate RMS power.

As for fidelity, JBL has the chops to build very very fine speaker systems, but are known for putting their name on some third party efforts that their marketing dept may thrust them into. What we don't know here was the budget they were given to work with, or what Toy gave them for performance targets.

Paralleling another speaker to lower the impedance much below 2 ohms will probably overheat the amplifier or blow it up.

You could reuse the OEM head unit, then buy an aftermarket amplifier/EQ and speakers. Many aftermarket amps use switching power supplies to bump the output swing voltage so that 4 and 8 ohm speakers can deliver desired SPL.

[AVConsult]

Oh, and the 440W may roughly be a *peak* rating; which would be about 14.4v squared divided by each full range driver impedance, plus the max from tweets.

[AVConsult]

Last, the JBL system may be targeted at the majority demographic for the vehicle...take a guess....

[sweeneyp]

Originally Posted by AVConsult

Since this is my area of expertise...

The magnet size on what appears to be the 6x9 may be because is it Neodymium, not ferrite. JBL makes a lot of Neo magnet drivers in the entire speaker line, including pro gear. Neo makes for a very efficient coil motor, lighter in weight, more compact, but more $$ than ferrite. JBL uses them where space or weight are an issue.

A speaker's DC resistance is not its AC impedance--the important spec. A regular DVM can't measure impedance properly, as the metric is frequency dependant and you have to simultaneously measure current and voltage. The speaker impedance may fall to half the DC resistance at some frequencies (typically near resonance) and gradually climb to 5 to 10 times the DC resistance at higher frequencies. In this case, the impedance probably averages out to between 1.6 and 3 ohms.

Low impedance speakers are chosen purely for the fact that for a simple bridging amplifier voltage swing (about 14.4v x 2, or 10V RMS), lowering the driver impedance yields higher power delivery and higher SPL. In this case, 50W max for a 2 ohm avg impedance speaker. The tweets are intentionally power limited as they are more efficient than the LF speakers and can handle less power.

If the sub is working with buzzes or rattles, then it's fine.

Your AC measurement may be fine for steady state purposes, especially using tones and a true RMS meter. However, unless you were measuring RMS current at the same time, using the DC resistance to calculate with is incorrect. You would have to know the impedance of the speaker at the tone frequency to properly calculate RMS power.

As for fidelity, JBL has the chops to build very very fine speaker systems, but are known for putting their name on some third party efforts that their marketing dept may thrust them into. What we don't know here was the budget they were given to work with, or what Toy gave them for performance targets.

Paralleling another speaker to lower the impedance much below 2 ohms will probably overheat the amplifier or blow it up.

You could reuse the OEM head unit, then buy an aftermarket amplifier/EQ and speakers. Many aftermarket amps use switching power supplies to bump the output swing voltage so that 4 and 8 ohm speakers can deliver desired SPL.

Wow you definitly know a TON more than I do about this
I just approached it from a pretty basic knowledge base.
-That makes sense about the 6x9's magnet. I didn't even think of it being a different material.
-I had read that the resistance would change according to what the speaker was doing (i mean the frequency input). I just tested the ohms after running the speakers some and figured that would be fairly close to the actual resistance. Though that might explain why the 6.5 was measured as a 3 ohm, but toyota docs say its 4. Though the docs also say the front speakers are 2 ohm and they measured 2 (1.9-2.1, it fluctuated).
-the sub crackles and distorts across the entire volume spectrum. Though it still kicks (some), I think my "testings ()" in the past to test the bass were a little to much as it didn't do this in the past.
-Well that makes sense about calculating the actual power. I had used the generic resistance and not the resistance at that tone (wrong resistance I see now).
-I understand the whole OEM built to budget mentality. They were probably weren't given much to work with and I think they did fairly well. I've used some of JBL's aftermarket speakers (along with other brands) and they really can make great stuff, compared to these OEM.
-I figured that about the amplifier and loads below 2 ohms. I know of a few mono sub amps that are 1 ohm stable, but i wouldn't dare go below 2 ohms with a OEM or standard multi-channel amp. I know that can just end badly.
I'll go back this weekend and see if I can get some more accurate readings and measurements (get the voltage and amperage to find the actual power, and to average the impedance) instead of my "winging it" and fix the original post

Originally Posted by AVConsult

Oh, and the 440W may roughly be a *peak* rating; which would be about 14.4v squared divided by each full range driver impedance, plus the max from tweets.

-The jbl website calls it a sustainable 440 watts, which made me think RMS. Though i thought that would have been ridiculous and always considered it to be peak. I'm assuming your getting the 14.4V as an assumed output from the alternator? I've noticed (when measuring DC volts at the battery) I never have that when the car is running (even when revving the engine to get higher rpm's. Mine always sits at 13.5-13.8V with everything off (inc AC).

Originally Posted by AVConsult

Last, the JBL system may be targeted at the majority demographic for the vehicle...take a guess....

-hahaha yea I know who the JBL system was built for, I'm just always "tinkering" with things on my car trying to improve it. Especially the lights and audio. Not to mention I've been putting vibration dampers on the door panels and body panels in to make it a better sound system friendly environment.
--------------------------------
FROM THE TWEETER POST (i didn't wanna have to post there while I had already posted this here)

Originally Posted by AVConsult

The original tweets output wont change at all (assuming the amplifier and wiring cooperate); the "power" will be apportioned according each speakers impedance, and both speakers still obey ohm's law.

An analogy; adding another light bulb (parallel connection) does not make either bulb any brighter. The power they dissipate is voltage across their terminals, squared, divided by their impedance, which is the same their resistance at a given temp, in this case.

(besides the fact that a 1.3 ohm load might tank the amp) Well for some reason I was thinking about having 1 speaker and lowering the resistance so that 1 speaker would get more power. I don't know why but I (not thinking) figured it would be teh same with the tweeter and mid-range setup, which it obviously isn't. That completely makes sense, the mid-range still uses the same power, but the extra power coming down the line from the .7 ohm drop goes to the tweeter.

I appreciate the info thanks
Patrick

[AVConsult]

yeah, I've killed more than a few speakers from excessive "testing". Kudos for digging into the system to understand how it was put together. You might be able to use one of those aftermarket subs with dual voice coils. If the individual coils are 4 ohms, you can parallel then to get down to 2.

As for impedance, because a speaker coil has some inductance and capacitance, it affects its current draw and thus power dissipation that changes with frequency. The DC resistance of course is "in the ballpark" of the rated impedance, and can be used as a go/no test of a speaker. The voice coils fail primarily two ways; the shellac/plastic coating the insulates the copper winding burns in spots and shorts the winding in that spot, making the coil resistance and impedance lower than nominal. The result is distorted and low output. If severely overloaded, the fine coil wire melts somewhere and creates an open. The speaker is pretty quiet after that.

It is interesting to be a fly on the wall to overhear what some of the design goals are in cars. In many cases, they go for "pleasant", with bumps in the upper mid range to improve speech clarity at low volume competing with wind and pavement whine, and also midbass bumps to overcome low frequency road noise. Subwoofer levels are often chosen to be optimum at cruising speeds, which means they tend to be a tad overbearing around town at default settings. Quite contrary to design goals for home systems.
Some of the more sophisticated systems adjust volume with car speed (GM since the mid 90's, and '08 or new HL's) and alter system EQ according to speed. Some late 90's Lexus advertised this. Since then, it has become more common and not mentioned as much in brochures.

Also, some manufacturers make the sound system do double duty for noise cancellation. '06 and newer Pilots use sense mics and the subwoofer to reduce road rumble and drive train resonance.

[sweeneyp]

Ok, I had time today, so I went back and corrected everything in the original post. I got the AC voltage and amperage at different frequencies to find the actual power and impeadance at lots of different frequencies, so hopefully everything should be right now
AVConsult, I had heard that acurca was going into the whole noise cancellation direction in their cars (from their commercials haha), well my version of noise cancellation is to really turn up the system It will definitely "cancel" out a lot of unwanted sound.

[nannahill]

I still can't believe this:

6x9's Front Door Speakers
Well considering these speakers only get low frequencies.

Actually I guess I can, given I always wondered why there was more bass than normal coming from the front.

[guytdt]

I will dynamt my hatch door where the sub located. If you ever open it up, please give instructions.

[sweeneyp]

Originally Posted by nannahill

I still can't believe this:

6x9's Front Door Speakers
Well considering these speakers only get low frequencies.

Actually I guess I can, given I always wondered why there was more bass than normal coming from the front.

Yea, its part of Toyota's "disturbed subwoofer" tech or something like that as the 8" sub is rather pathetic. The 6x9's only get signals from the amp to about 550hz. But the 2.5" pick up around 250hz, its strange, and really complicates replacements. The front seats have a lot more bass than the 2nd row (before I added my extra speakers ), it was rather annoying.

Originally Posted by guytdt

I will dynamt my hatch door where the sub located. If you ever open it up, please give instructions.

I've had that thing opened up many many times, its pretty easy to do. dynamat makes a BIG difference back there, I put a layer on both the inside and outside panels. Plus if you seal over the openings in the inner metal panel, it will give the sub more of sealed enclosure and it does play better in my opinion

I will PM you a document that gives a step by step guide.

It shows how to completly diassemble the tailgate so only follow the steps below.
Do steps: 2/3 or 4 (depending on whether you have the power door)/6/7/8/9/10/11 and you have access to everything.

Tips for each step:
2-7: The white clips that hold the panels to the metal are a pain to deal with. If you leave them in the metal and try to push the plastic panel back, you will push the clip INTO the tailgate and loose it (I know from experience ). Take them out and reattach them to the plastic panel BEFORE putting it back together. That's the only way it will work right.
8: the cover just pulls out, nothing tricky there.
9: just stick a screw driver in the opening and it will pop off.
10: its just a 10mm bolt
11: there might be a lot of resistance on taking this panel off the first time, but its just push pins. Just give it a strong pull and it will come off, can't damage anything here.