Does Toyota Still Build Quality?

[tagheuer]

We are in the market for another car in the next 3 months as the lease on our 2009 BMW 328 expires.

We bought a 2011 Highlander last year. The primary reason we selected the Highlander over the Grand Cherokee, Explorer, Pathfinder, Chevy Traverse/GMC Acadia, etc. was predicted reliability and durability.

So far we have had one problem, defective hinges on power rear hatch which caused closing problems.

But reading the forums here makes me reconsider a Toyota as our other vehicle...."creaks, pops and rattles", liftgate problems, rust problems, etc.

Interestingly, most of the complaints on here don't involve major mechanical systems like powertrain, HVAC, electrical etc.

Because quite honestly, the new Grand Cherokee has a much nicer interior, bigger gas tank, better range, looks great on the exterior, real offroad capability, etc...but I didn't consider because I bet the Highlander will give me 150k trouble free miles whereas the Jeep wouldn't...

So I have a few questions for you.

1) Has Toyota quality dropped significantly?

2) Is Toyota quality now on par (or worse) than domestics like Ford, Chrysler and GM?

3) Consumer Reports and other data sources still seem to indicate that Toyota has above average reliability and still ranks near the top, is the complaining here not generally representative of quality since for every person that complains, there are 5-10 who don't complain and their vehicles are fine?

This was prompted by the "would you buy the highlander again if you could go back in time" and many said they wouldn't...

[JMSinMD]

Toyota/Honda still is at the top when it comes to overall quality. I think a lot of us have gotten so used to perfection (Japanese built Toyota's) that we nitpick on the small stuff that Toyota should be able to easily take care of.

We've owned Toyota exclusively since 1984 and have never looked at anything else. If the Jeep GC was half the price of the Toyota HL, I'd still shell out the money for the HL.

[matt0420]

Define quality these days...

My front bumper had huge fitment issues and I've seen ton's of other Highlanders, Matrix, Lexus RX and other Lexus SUV's with similar fitment problems. To me that'd be a quality issue.

I've been fairly problem free otherwise, but that was a huge headache that I've never had with any other car I've owned.


In today's world I'd say it's ignorant to buy a certain vehicle over another due to "predicted quality/realiability/value" blah blah.

Before my Highlander I'd never had an "import" vehicle...non of my previous cars EVER went back to the dealership. My HL lived at my Toyota dealership for a 2 weeks while they tried to make my bumper fit.


I didn't pick the Highlander over it being a wonderful Toyota, infact most of my life I hated Toyotas....I picked over truely liking the vehicle.


I know Mopar's have a bad rep, and I've never had one in my lifetime, but if I could have any vehicle right now it would be a Dodge. The new Charger and Ram's are probably my favourite vehicles on the market right now, and I'd buy them in a heartbeat if I could, Chrysler's bad rep or not.

People say old GM's are horrid. My Grand Prix is my favourite car that I've ever owned. I will never trade that car in. Love that thing to death. It's been completely problem free.

Buy what you like, don't pick cars over "percieved" quality/reliability.

[AVConsult]

Toyota HAS stumbled considerably in recent years on *initial* quality, which is just beginning to show up in CR surveys and other data. However, it would be presumptuous to assume that translates to higher trouble rates throughout the service life.

Reason being, initial QC issues are often manufacturing/supplier kinks that can be worked out, whereas chronic or life cycle issues are often design flaws, which OEM's are reluctant to remedy due to the expense and time to re-engineer, re-tool. If the issue is catastrophic or comprises safety, they are forced into solving it.

As far as I can tell, Toy and Honda still rule in the long run, although recent Ford, Nissan and Subaru are pretty close up to 5 yr point, where they start to climb in problems/100 cars. Hyundai is one to watch long term as their 3/4 yr data is very good.

Last, you probably realize that that vast majority of people who join these forumns do so because they have a problem. Just like technicians only see "faulty product" and can easily make the assumption that all of the product is "junk" based on the 2% they see, which are ALL broken in some way. Always step back to look at the big picture. So far, only CR produces statistically relevant data for public consumption. The OEM's collect it but don't share it, at least directly.

I personally get a feel to overall quality of a vehicle--especially two or three year old vehicles-- by looking at the number of Tech Bulletins, the seriousness of issues therein, and the dates (i.e. whether it was largely contained in first runs).

[tagheuer]

matt04020, I'm confused by your comment that you think its ignorant to buy a vehicle based upon reliability/durability ratings.

Isn't that why Consumer Reports exists, many, many people rely upon reliability data in choosing a major purchase like this.

In a perfect would I love a Land Rover LR4, but I know from experience and empircal data they are prone to major problems.

I personally can't think of a great reason to buy a Toyota OTHER than reliability. Their handling, braking and steering are all subpar. They are boring styling wise and drive like appliances, but they are reliable.

Its not like the Highlander is an extremely compelling vehicle in its class, the NAV system sucks, the camera is low resolution, slow and doesn't have backup lines, the fuel tank is very small, no memory seats, etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, overall its a "nice" vehicle, but the interior of the Grand Cherokee blows the Toyota out of the water. The materials are much higher quality, no hard plastics or fuzzy felt headliners like the Toyo...

But I think Toyo will be more troublefree long term.

Have you ever owned a European car? I have owned many. BMWs are great drivers but very expensive to own/maintain long term...Toyos are cheap to own/maintain long term.

Quality / durability is a HUGE factor for almost all buyers...because the Highlander doesn't really bring anything to the table that is vastly better than the competition, EXCEPT reliability.

Its fuel economy is average, size/weight is average, power is middle of the road average, etc etc...

[sweeneyp]

Well my parents have an old '99 Lexus LX 470 (basically a land cruiser with a Lexus badge) and it has never had a single problem, no part has ever gone wrong, just normal maintenance (timing belts etc etc...). 300k+ miles and it runs like new (and I'm not exaggerating, the engine in that thing is awesome). Its basically a tank on wheels when it comes to build quality/durability. Now comparing our HL's to that, then yes I would say quality has lessened some. Different materials are being used to lessen the cost of manufacturing the vehicles, which end up not being as durable etc etc. I've already had a few minor things come up on my HL (not many, but I didn't expect them).
Basically what I'm trying to get at is fit & finish (interior quality, panel fitment etc...) might not be up to par with some of the newer stuff on the market, but I think the important stuff (powertrain, AC system, major components like that) are still very reliable. That that is why you buy a vehicle like this. Its not a head turner, its just a solid car that will last. (and now I've jinxed it, my HL going to break down now haha)

edit: oh and tagheuer in your last post about fuel econ being average, I'm going to have to disagree there. Compared to others I think its much better. the new grand cherokee mpg is pathetic (the new penstar V6 might be powerful but its thirsty, 16 mpg in the city really???, it tries to make up for it with that big a$$ fuel tank), and the other's are just now getting to where the HL been at for 2+ years (some are passing using turbo 4's). And remember while the highlander has only been out since '08 the 2GR-FE V6 we have came out in late 2005 so we are using a 5 year old engine compared with the brand new v6's/turbo 4's on the market (Which I think is pretty impressive for this engine that's getting some years on it). Plus my HL usually gets a little over the EPA rating, so for a vehicle this size and weight, with a pretty torque happy 270hp V6, and not to mention its acceleration abilities, I think its pretty good in that department. Though my last car was an old grand Cherokee with a large v8 that loved to chug fuel so I might be biased

[matt0420]

tag,

I'm saying that in today's world it's not really safe to say "hey I've bought a _______ because I know I'm not going to have any problems, even though it's only so-so in my opinion. I like this car, but it is apparently so unreliable I could never justify buying that."

Sure there are a few exceptions (like you mentioned with the LR4) as some vehicles are known to be nothing but unreliable and expensive to fix, and no, I have never owned anything European, nor do I have any family with anything European. Except for the Volvo XC90 I haven't ever wanted a European vehicle, so they have never really been on my radar. I don't really see many European SUV's as direct Highlander competition either.

All makes seem to be putting out decently put together vehicles these days, and buying one brand over another is not going to guarantee you problem free ownership.

I mean look at your case, it seems as if you preferred various other SUV's but went with a Highlander because you thought it would be the most reliable. You've had power door issues. If you went with a Grand Cherokee you may have had zero issues. It's not fair to dismiss the Jeep as domestic and therefore unreliable.


I guess some surveys such as CR might have merit to some, but to me that is the last thing I would look at when buying a car, in the end I' going to buy what I like. If I know a vehicle is a total POS I'd avoid it, but because CR says Toyota is the most reliable doesn't mean I want a Toyota in every category of vehicle.


I totally disagree with your comment that the Highlander isn't one of the better choices in it's class, it was overall my favourite vehicle in that class at the time, so thats what I picked. My choice had nothing to do with Toyota's being the best quality, I thought the HL and the Pilot were the only two that looked like proper SUV's, not swoopy low crossover things, I loved the interior lay-out, it was pretty much the perfect size for me, and I loved the way it drove. To me the NAV does it's job, it's a great size and looks well integrated into the dash, don't really need lines on top of a back-up camera to reverse the vehicle, and I've never really noticed the fuel tank being to small.

[MI-Silver-HL]

One of the best gauges of long term reliability of any vehicle is the price of a 7/8 year extended warranty. The more expensive the warranty the worse the (predicted) reliability of the vehicle. The extended warranty is nothing more than an insurance policy and underwriters are not prone to making mistakes on pricing.

An '11 HL 8 year/125K miles with $0 copay/deductible was quoted almost $3K less than a 7 year/100K miles for an '11 Jeep GC ($1400 vs $4200) - I could not even get a quote on the GC for 8 years/125K miles. Tells me all I need to know about reliability. (That and the fact that I'd previously owned a GC and know from personal experience how bad they are over the long term.)

[JMSinMD]

Originally Posted by MI-Silver-HL

One of the best gauges of long term reliability of any vehicle is the price of a 7/8 year extended warranty. The more expensive the warranty the worse the (predicted) reliability of the vehicle. The extended warranty is nothing more than an insurance policy and underwriters are not prone to making mistakes on pricing.

An '11 HL 8 year/125K miles with $0 copay/deductible was quoted almost $3K less than a 7 year/100K miles for an '11 Jeep GC ($1400 vs $4200) - I could not even get a quote on the GC for 8 years/125K miles. Tells me all I need to know about reliability. (That and the fact that I'd previously owned a GC and know from personal experience how bad they are over the long term.)

In addition, historically the Big 3 have built garbage vehicles, yes they might have changed, but I won't be the one that learns the hard way. In addition the only reason they are still in business is because the government bailout, not because they've done a 180 with their products. They should have learned the hard way.....

[summerwind]

Originally Posted by matt0420

Before my Highlander I'd never had an "import" vehicle...non of my previous cars EVER went back to the dealership. My HL lived at my Toyota dealership for a 2 weeks while they tried to make my bumper fit.

Since 2009 Highlanders are made in the USA..The 2008's came from Japan

The Highlander is the 12th Toyota model to be manufactured in North America. Toyota Motor Manufacturing, Indiana (TMMI) which already manufactures the Tundra pickup, the Sienna and the Sequoia has started with the production of the Highlander as well

[JMSinMD]

Originally Posted by summerwind

Since 2009 Highlanders are made in the USA..The 2008's came from Japan

My 2009 is Japanese built. I think it was halfway through 2009 when they switched.

[summerwind]

Originally Posted by JMSinMD

My 2009 is Japanese built. I think it was halfway through 2009 when they switched.

I should have clarified. they started to build in the Indiana plant on October 2009

[TrailDust]

Originally Posted by tagheuer

Interestingly, most of the complaints on here don't involve major mechanical systems like powertrain, HVAC, electrical etc.

Reliability is the #1 thing I want in a vehicle, and I wouldn't be taking my Highlander out into B.F. Egypt if I didn't have faith in its reliability. I can live with a couple of rattles and squeaks as long as I know the vehicle is reliable.

[matt0420]

Originally Posted by summerwind

Since 2009 Highlanders are made in the USA..The 2008's came from Japan

Which is why I have "import" with quotations around the word.
To the vast majority of people out there a "domestic" vehicle is still a GM, Ford, or Mopar, and an import is the rest...

I love when my dad asks me hows the jap (don't think I've ever heard him call it by any other name) and I tell him great, built in the USA unlike your "American" Mexican built Buick.

[jdw67]

Like my stock broker told me, "Past performance should not dictate possible future earnings."

If you buy a Toyota that's been reliable for the past 5 years doesn't mean the next one you buy will be just as reliable.

It seems like getting a reliable car is a crap shoot these days. My neighbor's two sons went out and bought 2 identicle Mustangs. One was solid as a rock while the other had problems from day one and it was sold after only about 15k miles on it.