Pursuing lemon law/buyback need help.

[thegman230]

Hi all,

I could use a little help here as I am uncertain on the steps to pursue a vehicle buyback under federal or state lemon law.

Background: I have a 2008 gas Highlander Limited 4x4 that was purchased brand new back in August of 2007 in NY. I currently have approximately 59100 mile on her. I have been in NC for the last 4 years that I have owned the vehicle

Over the course of the years, I've had numerous things go wrong that needed replacement. Such things as the power back door motor 3 times, full front seat frame replacement, steering shaft replacement (to which I still have suspension knock and pop noises) numerous recalls, door panels broken, window channels worn out, alignment problems, shaking steering wheel despite numerous efforts to balance/swap tires and wheels and the list goes on.

These problems although annoying, are not the reason why I would like to pursue a buyback. That reason has to do with the engine timing/vvti/camshaft clicking/grinding noise at startup that there is a TSB for (althogh Toyota likes to keep hush on how big the problem really is) that I unfortunately am the victim of as many others who purchased their vehicle back then. This defect has been giving me sleepless nights along with stress and aggravation beyond the point of breaking. I will explain.

I started to experience this issue over this past summer and brought it in to have it looked at. After several trips and conditions, they were able to hear the problem and ordered parts to repair. No inspection of parts were performed beforehand. I bring the car in and leave it there for a week and they tell me it is ready. I pick it up and the engine sounds like chitty chitty bang bang, like a clacking knock noise that you can clearly hear with the engine idling. A completely new noise that was never there before they started the work. Like a diesel engine type knock. I bring it back and they start to give me the run around that it is normal and due to them having to remove the engine and blah blah blah and I am not taking that as an answer. Long story short, I had a major fight with the dealer and all their excuses and so I called Toyota and opened a case. I ended up meeting with the service director at the dealer and I requested a factory rep/engineer come out and listen to the sound because the dealer was playing dumb and not willing to admit any wrongdoing. I find out from the parts department after some digging, that only half the parts were ordered and replaced and not all the parts that the TSB specified. They never inspected them before the job was done and just ordered some random parts based on "previous experience" with other vehicles that have this noise.

Well, a couple weeks go by until I finally meet with a factory rep. Guess what occurs during this waiting period......YUP the original start-up noise returns! This is in addition to the NEW clack clack noise that was present when I received my vehicle back after their work. Obviously the repair was botched and they don't want to admit it.

I meet with the factory rep and shop foreman(whom is the person who I met with and who ordered the parts initially) and have her listen to the NEW problem and also tell her that the original problem was back. The shop foreman did not know this so it was a surprise to him. I show her the parts list and TSB and basically make the dealer look really bad that nothing was inspected before the work was performed and that only some of the parts were replaced and now the noise is back along with a new unidentifiable noise.

She asks me to bring the car back in a week when she will be there to leave it and have them look at it and come to a conclusion. She calls me and tells me that she would like an engineer to come look at it and he will be there in another week so I should hold onto the car and bring it in then.

I wait a week and then finally bring it in on the day specified. She did not want to let me be there to speak to the engineer as she said they really do not speak to customers. I was a bit taken back by that but she was very nice throughout the process.

I get a call later that day from the service director that states that the engineer ordered a NEW short block(not entire engine assembly)... stating something about piston slap AND the rest of the parts that were never put in the first time.

I leave the car there for a week and they call to me to pick up. I do so and everything seems A-OK. No strange noises. Fast forward a month and guess what.....the original TSB startup VVTI timing gear/cam noise is BACK, albeit quieter than before.

I am at a loss and I cannot continue to do this. This will be the third attempt at repair of the engine. The engine has already come out twice. This can go on indefinitely and continue far past my warranty. I am not about to continue to be a guinea pig for Toyota. I dis not expect this and cannot stand by while they try to figure out what is wrong over and over again.


Can anyone recommend a lemon law lawyer or at least tell me the procedure to get started? I have not yet told the dealer that the noise has returned and honestly they suck and were not on my side from the start.


Any and all help is tremendously appreciated.

Thanks for listening

Greg

[sbbamafan]

Not sure but I think you are way, way overdue for a lemon law. I think lemon laws are only the 1st year or so of ownership.

[FilPilot]

It is state dependent take a look at this link

http://www.ag.ny.gov/bureaus/consume...lemon_law.html

[TrailDust]

Originally Posted by FilPilot

It is state dependent take a look at this link

http://www.ag.ny.gov/bureaus/consume...lemon_law.html

Exactly the advice and link I was going to give. Most state attorney general's offices are excellent at taking care of these issues.

[thegman230]

Thanks for the link guys. Looks like I will take to pursue the Federal Magnusson Moss act that does not have any time or mileage limits ( as long as you are within warranty). The state lemon law has already expired.

Anyone know a good lemon law attorney? I found a firm on the internet at the link below. Not sure how they are but they are BBB accredited with an A+ rating.

http://www.krohnandmoss.com/

Does anyone think I should tell the dealer or contact Toyota first to let them know the problem is back and see what they say before pursuing this option?


Any suggestions?

Thanks again

[TrailDust]

Originally Posted by thegman230

Does anyone think I should tell the dealer or contact Toyota first to let them know the problem is back and see what they say before pursuing this option?

It's always good to give them a crack at it and make it right, and then if they don't or won't you can take it to a higher authority as it were. By doing that, you've gone through the process "by the numbers" and are standing on high ground in any possible future actions.

[Zembonez]

Why not trade this thing off and not look back? Obsessing forever is probably not going to result in anything but causing you grief.

I seriously doubt that you are going to succeed in having the vehicle "bought back".

Time to move on.

[guytdt]

Originally Posted by Zembonez

Why not trade this thing off and not look back? Obsessing forever is probably not going to result in anything but causing you grief.

I seriously doubt that you are going to succeed in having the vehicle "bought back".

Time to move on.

Second that. With 60K miles, it's time for a new car
The legal process could be painful for some.

[jeffs3820]

Originally Posted by thegman230

Thanks for the link guys. Looks like I will take to pursue the Federal Magnusson Moss act that does not have any time or mileage limits ( as long as you are within warranty). The state lemon law has already expired.

Anyone know a good lemon law attorney? I found a firm on the internet at the link below. Not sure how they are but they are BBB accredited with an A+ rating.

http://www.krohnandmoss.com/

Does anyone think I should tell the dealer or contact Toyota first to let them know the problem is back and see what they say before pursuing this option?


Any suggestions?

Thanks again

I used Krohn & Moss to take care of an issue I had with a 2003 Dodge Caravan. They were good to work with and we did reach a settlement with Dodge.

[AXMACD]

I thought lemon law was for new (current year) vehicles? I'm well outside my warranty (80K/2008 Sport) and I wouldn't dream of asking for anything from the dealer... My HL has the odd engine noise, pop, squeal, grind, tick but I've had it for 3 years now, something happens... it's trade in time for me.

[MI-Silver-HL]

My last vehicle (sandwiched between 2 Highlanders) was an '11 Subaru Outback. The new generation OBs ('10, '11, '12) have a significant issue with a steering/body vibration and/or shimmy (as well as a number of other PITA issues). Mine was one of those affected and I looked into what was involved in a 'lemon law' action.

First, lemon laws vary significantly by state. Since you bought your HL in New York but now live in North Carolina the logistics may get complicated as it might be the NY laws and courts that would have jurisdiction. Don't know how that would play out in real life. These sites may help you do a bit more research - http://www.carlemon.com and http://www.lemonlawamerica.com

Second, all states allow for use depreciation in the settlement. Most common is depreciation based on an expected 100,000 mile life span of the vehicle. Simply stated with 60K miles already on your HL you have only 40% of the life remaining so you would get only 40% of the award (ie: if you're awarded $40,000 in the settlement you'd end up with just $16,000 - minus any expenses you might be liable for). This is for normal wear and tear, additional deductions could also apply. Chances are you could sell/trade it for the same amount with less hassle.

Further exacerbating the situation is, in most states, the depreciation applies to the point when you return the vehicle versus when you first reported the condition or filed the action. If it takes 6 months to settle that's another few thousand miles of depreciation.

A 'buy back' is not a lemon law action, rather it's an agreement negotiated between you and the manufacturer/dealer. None of the above constraints apply but I'm sure the 'other party' is not going to do anything that's of more benefit to you than them.

In my case with the Subaru, I got a decent (not great) trade so my out of pocket 'loss' was about what 10 months of lease payments would have been so I decided to do that and get the Outback out of my life as soon as possible and with minimal hassle - life is too short to get wrapped up in piddling stuff for too long.

[nickxrs]

If the noise isn't causing any mechanical problems then my advice would be to just deal with it. You're not going to get a perfect car that sounds amazing everytime you turn it on. Seems to me the dealer and Toyota did everything they can.

[thegman230]

Originally Posted by nickxrs

If the noise isn't causing any mechanical problems then my advice would be to just deal with it. You're not going to get a perfect car that sounds amazing everytime you turn it on. Seems to me the dealer and Toyota did everything they can.

You must work for a dealer. Thanks but no thanks to your advice. It's just wrong on so many levels.

[thegman230]

Originally Posted by MI-Silver-HL

My last vehicle (sandwiched between 2 Highlanders) was an '11 Subaru Outback. The new generation OBs ('10, '11, '12) have a significant issue with a steering/body vibration and/or shimmy (as well as a number of other PITA issues). Mine was one of those affected and I looked into what was involved in a 'lemon law' action.

First, lemon laws vary significantly by state. Since you bought your HL in New York but now live in North Carolina the logistics may get complicated as it might be the NY laws and courts that would have jurisdiction. Don't know how that would play out in real life. These sites may help you do a bit more research - http://www.carlemon.com and http://www.lemonlawamerica.com

Second, all states allow for use depreciation in the settlement. Most common is depreciation based on an expected 100,000 mile life span of the vehicle. Simply stated with 60K miles already on your HL you have only 40% of the life remaining so you would get only 40% of the award (ie: if you're awarded $40,000 in the settlement you'd end up with just $16,000 - minus any expenses you might be liable for). This is for normal wear and tear, additional deductions could also apply. Chances are you could sell/trade it for the same amount with less hassle.

Further exacerbating the situation is, in most states, the depreciation applies to the point when you return the vehicle versus when you first reported the condition or filed the action. If it takes 6 months to settle that's another few thousand miles of depreciation.

A 'buy back' is not a lemon law action, rather it's an agreement negotiated between you and the manufacturer/dealer. None of the above constraints apply but I'm sure the 'other party' is not going to do anything that's of more benefit to you than them.

In my case with the Subaru, I got a decent (not great) trade so my out of pocket 'loss' was about what 10 months of lease payments would have been so I decided to do that and get the Outback out of my life as soon as possible and with minimal hassle - life is too short to get wrapped up in piddling stuff for too long.

Thank you for the time you took to reply. I agree that general "lemon laws" would do me no good here because there are limitations and they vary from state to state. Rather, my savior would be the federal magnusson Moss act which states that a vehicle manufacturer must repair a vehicle that is still under manufacturer factory or extended warranty (mine is) and if they cannot do so in a "reasonable" number of attempts (ie, 3) then the "enough is enough" clause comes in and the manufacturer must buy back the vehicle or settle with the owner. You as the owner do not have to continue to let the manufacturer try to repair the vehicle. It also has NO time or mileage restrictions like state lemon laws do.

This is the route I will be going if the dealer and toyota cannot fix the car for the 3rd and final attempt.

In my eyes, the vehicle is "devalued" in it's current state and the amount of money that they have given the dealer to fix this problem is close to $15k already, inclusive of a new short block(not entire assembly). You think they want to keep trying? I say they should cut their loses.

[thegman230]

Originally Posted by jeffs3820

I used Krohn & Moss to take care of an issue I had with a 2003 Dodge Caravan. They were good to work with and we did reach a settlement with Dodge.

Excellent! I will give them a call. Thanks!