Wait so your not talking about the VVT-I Start up clatter? Are you taking about the ticking when idling? You have me a bit confused...

 

1. "Much Louder Clatter"; unknown whether it was extra loud wildly banging VVti or/and a leaked down lifter(s) banging away until it pressurized.

2. "Normal Clatter"; The VVTi didn't-get-my-pin-in-place-at-shutdown noise that many know and love.

3. "injector clatter"; a rapid tickety-tick that is always in the background, louder when the engine is cold, and more audible after #1 and #2 quiet down. It's the only noise that probably is truly normal.

My 20 min flush seems to have for the last three weeks eliminated #2 for sure and #1 , whatever it was.

I'm *guessing* that along with the VVTi clatter this engine has had since 35,000 miles, with 75,600 miles now, one or more lifters may have had some shellac or deposits affecting the check ball, thus leaking down, making the occasional extra loud racket at startup. Conversely, I'm ready to allow that Toyota makes 250,000 mile or better lifters and had nothing to do with #1 ..

Part of my recording due diligence will be to analyze the startup recording for frequency and pattern. Should be able to separate VVTi, lifter and injector noise.

 

Interesting for sure, I want to follow this one

 

Hm, well if you think it has some kind of effect on the VVT-i shenanigans (or any of the unusual engine noises in general), I'd be a good candidate to confirm/back up your results :lol: Mine still does it almost every day (sometimes multiple times a day).

I got an oil change coming up in ~500 miles (at the rate I drive thats 3'ish weeks), I'll get a bottle of that flush stuff and give it a try when I change it. I'm interested in seeing if there are any improvements/changes.

 

in ~500 miles (at the rate I drive thats 3'ish weeks)

Dear gosh I envy you LOL
I put on about 400 per WEEK :lol:

 

Yikes

Normally, I only go through 1 tank a week and that's about 250-270 miles depending on my lead foot. But my car is used for a lot of long trips that add up the miles quickly. I've added ~75k miles to my HL in the 3'ish years I've had it.

Sry AV, done with the hijack :lol:

 

Was this limited to certain years, and if so, what specifically was changed? I thought Toyota issued a revised part in 2010 or so to address but I could be completely wrong

 

SP might remember, but I believe Toyota did address the issue. Folks with 2010 or newer can comment whether they've ever heard this ruckus at startup.

SP--I used Gunk only because it was in the cabinet. Other oil flushes my very well work the same, better, worse. Don't know.

I did perform an informal test with Gunk on that honey colored shellac, when I had my '02 oil pan off a few weeks ago. At room temp, gunk was ineffective on the shellac. Acetone removed it, but not without some elbow grease. I had thought about heating the Gunk to 190F or so and testing it, but ran out of time.

Right now, I am a bit puzzled as to *why* the Gunk made a difference as my skeptic hat is on regarding it's chemical effectiveness. Maybe elevated temps and 20 minutes of swishing is the thing.

What I do know is that shellac can be quite sticky when it's hot and softened.

Another musing; I am not settled as to how the VVTi failure occurs. Toyota implies the situation actually occurs at SHUTDOWN, where the pin fails to engage when the ECU moves the phaser to park position, in which case it has a chance to make the clatter at any startup, warm or cold?

I only noticed my clatter at cold starts (i.e after sitting all day or all night). SP, you seem to imply yours will do it cold or warm? Will it clatter if you do say three starts in a row when warm/hot?

Inspect my logic, here; with my HL, I can see that if the pin fails to engage at shutdown, then at cold start, the receiving boss on the phaser is a tad smaller in diameter than when warm/hot, where the vibration during cranking wouldn't jiggle the pin into the shrunken boss and lock the phaser until oil pressure arrives. At warm/hot cranking, the pin is able to jiggle into the boss more often, since boss diameter is a bit larger. Granted the pin is also slightly larger in diameter, but doesn't vary as much as the boss diameter? My physics is a bit rusty on rates of thermal expansion. Maybe the pin diameter is more variable with temp, than the boss?

I also assume that there are slight machining tolerance differences in pins and bosses, between vehicles that make one more prone than another to "miss the hole". I'm also assuming that with slight build up of shellac or ?? on either/or the pin and boss makes it less likely for engagement.

 

SP might remember, but I believe Toyota did address the issue. Folks with 2010 or newer can comment whether they've ever heard this ruckus at startup.

:dunno:
It did seem to only be 08 and maybe a few 09's that complained, but...:dunno:

I only noticed my clatter at cold starts (i.e after sitting all day or all night). SP, you seem to imply yours will do it cold or warm? Will it clatter if you do say three starts in a row when warm/hot?

No mine will do it once and only once, it seems once oil pressure is there, it takes a few hours before it will clatter.

Well, I'll give you an example, today I started the car 5 times, it did it 3 times today.

Once at 7:30am (sitting overnight)
Once at 11:20am (after sitting in the parking lot for 3'ish hours), temp gauge was still a tick above C
Once at 2:10pm (car had sat since ~11:50am), didn't look at C mark
And it ALMOST did it (like it wanted to, but oil pressure built up quick enough to counter, you can hear it still) at 5pm after sitting since 2:20pm.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the equation, mine does it depending on the time of the year. It won't do it during winter, but spring/summer/fall, its game. I wonder if ambient temp/air moisture have anything to do with it :dunno:

Inspect my logic, here; with my HL, I can see that if the pin fails to engage at shutdown, then at cold start, the receiving boss on the phaser is a tad smaller in diameter than when warm/hot, where the vibration during cranking wouldn't jiggle the pin into the shrunken boss and lock the phaser until oil pressure arrives. At warm/hot cranking, the pin is able to jiggle into the boss more often, since boss diameter is a bit larger. Granted the pin is also slightly larger in diameter, but doesn't vary as much as the boss diameter? My physics is a bit rusty on rates of thermal expansion. Maybe the pin diameter is more variable with temp, than the boss?

I also assume that there are slight machining tolerance differences in pins and bosses, between vehicles that make one more prone than another to "miss the hole". I'm also assuming that with slight build up of shellac or ?? on either/or the pin and boss makes it less likely for engagement.

The boss would maintain heat levels longer than the pin would (so in theory the hole should stay larger longer), but I can't imagine the engine engineers didn't pick a material (I'm assuming a steel alloy, I can't imagine this engine still uses iron cams) with a very small (or manageable) coefficient of thermal expansion and/or creating clearances to allow for a very wide range of operating temperatures. I mean I live in Nashville, TN, this isn't death valley or the arctic, I have fairly stable temps :lol:


Only way to really tell if there is that kind of deposits sitting in the boss hindering pin engagement is to tear open the actuator and take a look....Feel like doing that? :lol: You only have to tear the whole front of the engine apart, no big deal :lol:



You know, now that this thread has come up, I've been listening to the sounds while cold, and your right, there is a slight clatter, what I could almost describe as sounding like piston slap when cold and or under load when cold. Though I've heard this is due to all the injectors firing at once when warming up :dunno:


This is a great video, Go to 1:07

You can hear the VVT-i clatter at start up (VERY faint in his case, mine is significantly louder, to the point buddies of mine turn around and look at my car 30ft away and scowl...then a few have asked if I have a diesel :lol:

But the cold tapping sound sounds JUST like mine. The 07 Sienna does use the same 2GR-FE & U151(E or F) transaxle as us.

I'll see if I can get a recording when I have more free time...

Is there a particular flush product you think works better than the other? That gunk stuff is available locally and is fairly cheap...

 

Well I took my camera w/ me this morning....

This is a cold startup after sitting all night (I recorded until the RPM dropped to ~1100rpm warming up.). YOu can definitly hear the VVT-I and then the taping afterwords.

After I use the flush, I'll record it again and post it for before/after difference.
(Oh and on a random note, a big :nofu: to the toyota techs that told me this was normal while I was still in warranty :facepalm



Oh and like I said in teh previous post, mine does the VVT-I noise several times a day, this was after ~2 hours, the picture below is the engine temp as soon as it cranked, so it hadn't cooled down at all.

I did pick up the gunk today at Autozone for $5, so I'll try that when I change the oil. I'm going on a trip the weekend of the 18th, so the oil change will be sometime before then.

 

SP--great recording! It also occurred to me I should have recorded my'08 before doing the Gunk. Strike two for the week! :disappoin

When I get home, will capture your audio and analyze the VVti clatter.

 

Dang that minivan full on sounded like a diesel?!?!


Yeah I hear it in your vids..
Very odd.....

 

Dang that minivan full on sounded like a diesel?!?!
.

Pretty sure that wasn't clatter throughout. Just a brief clatter on startup. A quick capture of that sound track and comparison to SP's would confirm. In all the posts I've seen about the startup clatter, the noise comes and goes pretty fast, similar to SP's recording.

What it sounds like to me is lifter noise. Not heavy enough for piston slap, to my ears. He might also have a small exhaust leak on top of it.

 

SP--here's some basic stats from your cold startup (just so I have a place to note them):

The clatter has a fundamental frequency of ~39Hz, which appears to be once per revolution (~2300rpm start up).

The clatter begins 0.37 seconds or 14 revolutions after the engine catches and lasts for 0.59 seconds or 23 revolutions.

Why once per revolution (360 degree crank rotation)? Just one bank VVti assy making the noise? Both banks, in which case the noise is once every two revolutions (720 degrees of crank)?

I can't see that the clatter is present but obscured before the 0.37s mark.

An aside: did verify after the VVti "clatter" in the recording, what must be prominent injector clicking, as it occurs at 3x the rpm rate, which corresponds to a 6 cyl getting fuel spurts every 120 degrees of rotation. I believe there was some speculation as to whether the injectros were making the tickety-tick, especially when cold.

Nothing else in the block or valve train would be at that rate and at sharp impulses, that I can think of. There is a 3x rate broader (lower in fundamental frequency) pulse that must be exhaust related.

In any case, I have a solid signature of the clatter.

 

Dude do you work for the NSA or CSI?:respect:

 

Classified information. BTW, you should probably stop making those cell calls to Uruguay. :rofl2:

 

This sure sounds like lifter/valve noise to me. I also have occasional clatter at start up which has survived replacement of the block for piston slap and replacement of one of the VVTi's. My noise really sounds like the starter solenoid spring is weak and not disengaging fast enough.
However I'll give the gunk flush a try to see if it settles down the valve noise a bit.

 

Mine's an '08. I've kept an eye on this subject since it first came up. All I can say is that, so far, "normal" for mine has been quiet and smooth as silk since the day I bought it,.......winter, summer,......not a clatter out of it. So, when I hear the dealership saying the clatter sound is "normal" I tend to think of that hooker who, when asked about Clinton's definition of what sex was, said, "The longer he talks,......the closer I get to being a virgin." Now watch. Since I've mentioned how quiet my engine is,.......tomorrow my crank shaft will fall out.

 

"The longer he talks,......the closer I get to being a virgin." Now watch. Since I've mentioned how quiet my engine is,.......tomorrow my crank shaft will fall out.

:rofl2::rofl2:

 

While on the topic of hydraulic lifters, what is the history of Toyota and this lifter type? Everything I've owned until this 2gr-fe used solid bucket tappets.

Any history or premature hydraulic lifter wear or failures?

This is directed to any Toy tech monitors this forum or others with a broader exposure to Toy's fleet.

 

I don't know about Toyotas but I have 251k on the hydraulic lifters in my gm 4.3 v6. I am not to concerned should make it to 300k or more I would think.

 

Hydraulic Lifters are usually very reliable, but if they stick the cam can drive a whole straight through it like in my vw gti. The ticking you refer to seems to be short so its probably not that. That sounds like an oil pressure or a slightly stuck lifter because its at start up and only last a second or so. If the ticking stopped after the gunk flush then it probably means your lifter was sticking slightly and the solvents in the gunk temporarily cleared it up. If the tick comes back after the gunk then you probably have an issue that requires the lifter being changed or using a higher viscosity oil. I would send out an oil sample to test for lifter metal wear, this will tell you if the lifter is excessively worn or just sticking.

 

Dang AV...going all CSI on that video :lol:

Thats interesting what you found...let alone heard. This is a simple point and shoot camera, its mic is far from spectacular...

Oh well, I'll interested in seeing the results, if any. I'll get a warm idling sound (with AC compressor off) before the gunk, with the gunk, and then after the gunk to see if there really are any changes. There is an audible clicking when idling at low rpm's once warm, the camera didn't really pick up on it nor did I let the car idle long enough (I was running late :lol


edit: Oh and I agree part of that noise in synchronous injector firing during warmup. Coulda sworn I read that somewhere, but now I can't find it.

 

Just a caveat to those who may want to try Gunk or some other flush in the hopes that this magically cures the startup clatter; I am trying it because the clatter on my '08 was intermittently WORSE as of late, which alarmed me.

I figured something had deteriorated. Had the Gunk already and in a "what the heck" moment dumped about half the bottle's recommended amount in just before the oil change.

I really wasn't expecting it to make any difference, and to be fair, I'm very skeptical that this magically solves the clatter issue, long term.

If the clatter returns sometime before my normal 7000 mile OC, will probably repeat the 16 oz Gunk treatment and monitor for another 7000 miles. If it returns before that OC, then I'll have to weigh whether using Gunk at every OC is wise. Don't know the long term affects of using a solvent before OC.

 

WHAT?! You mean this isn't a miracle in a bottle!?! :lol:

I totally agree this is a "what the heck" move (me using gunk). I figure its $5, I save more than that changing my own oil, and whats the worse that can happen...a slightly cleaner engine? :lol:

So you got the 16oz? Autozone had the 32oz which is what I got, you think it would be a bad idea to dump the whole thing in there or just use half, I can't imagine 1 extra quart being too much of an issue :dunno:

 

Rogain and blue pills are miracles in bottles....

I have three 32oz bottles of Gunk. Why? I'd buy one, forget I had it and several months later, buy another. And so on. If I keep this up, my family is going to tie a cow bell around my neck before I go outside, to keep track of me....

I used 16 oz just out precaution. Pouring 32 oz of solvent down the hatch gave me pause. Not sure it should have. It just seemed like a lot of solvent.

I would encourage you to use 32 oz and report back. Just because you are braver. An because it's not my car.

 

As a solvent.. which is capable of dissolving petroleum based gunk... are you not concerned about the temporary lack of lubrication?

 

It would still be 6 parts oil to 1 part Gunk, so it's thinner oil for sure, but still substantially lubricant. I just don't know to what compromise. Supposedly it's safe at idle (no engine load). Maybe I'm over-cautious.

 

Well changed the oil Wednesday. I used the entire qt of Gunk. I drained the filter first (so I wouldn't have 7+ qts of fluid in the engine), then poured it in and let it idle for 20 min. The engine was running with AC off and had been driven for 30 min right before I did this, so it was plenty warm.

As promised here is the vid

...which shows nothing, it sounds the same the whole way through. Not a big deal, wasn't really expecting anything.

But I will say, the VVT-I startup rattle hasn't happened once since I did this (opposed to 2-3 times a day before). So your theory on stuff gumming up the lock pin hole (excuse the lack of technical terms ) could be possible. Who knows only time will tell. I will say my butt dyno thinks the engine is more willing to rev now, but having said that, there were never any indications of buildup before that could possibly hinder reving... I mean if you look into the oil cap, the metal (not the baffle) is perfectly clean...

Oh well, I;ll report back later about the VVT-I start-up noise being patched or not.

 

UPDATE: EDIT: 76, 170 mi

Another two weeks have gone by and still no VVTi clatter on cold or warm starts. I'll start posting mileage readings here as well.



I have 6 startup recordings now.

I analyzed the cold start this morning (if you call 75 degrees ambient a cold start) since I *thought* some VVTi clatter was present. Upon analysis, discovered it wasn't VVTi clatter as the recording lacked the prominent 39 Hz (once per revolution) pattern.

What it did contain was a 70 Hz pattern (it's warmer outside than it was last week so lower startup RPM) twice per revolution pattern that lasted for 0.9 seconds right after the engine "caught". Don't know if that's valve train noise or the synchronous injector thing. Either way, it stops abruptly, where the softer valve train/injector/exhaust pulses remain.

SP--have you scoured the FSM for some mention of this synchronous injector behavior? Any insight?

 

SP--have you scoured the FSM for some mention of this synchronous injector behavior? Any insight?

Bingo, I knew I had read it somewhere...

 

I'll see what I can find. I could have sworn I read something somewhere about it, but I can't find anything quickly :dunno:

 

It did the startup clatter today. MUCH shorter than usual, and much quieter. If its frequency of happening is reduced this much, I'd say that gunk was a pretty good patch fix :lol:

edit: and I totally forgot about the fuel injector thing :facepalm:, let me look.